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Jeep engineers talk to us
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20338		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bbertram [ Wed May 02, 2007 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Jeep engineers talk to us
I found this great thread on another forum. I few people from here were posting a few questions and I found it funny. Go read all the questions and answers.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403834
Author:  BVCRD [ Wed May 02, 2007 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
You must be easily amused.
Author:  DZL_LOU [ Wed May 02, 2007 4:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Those are very good sales, marketing and spin doctors posing as engineers. So it makes for funny reading.
Author:  huxrules [ Wed May 02, 2007 4:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Here was one of the questions (from the other site):

Originally Posted by BVCRD
I have read on another forum that some guys are disconnecting their MAF sensors in an attempt to shut down the EGR. Some claim better fuel economy and power. This practise is illegal and harmful to the atmosphere. Is it also harmful to the engines themselves?


Here was the answer:
With the EGR disabled, you can build up exhaust gasses to form sludge. Over time, this can decrease your performance. This does make the engine work harder.


Here is my question- Wha?!?
Author:  kjfishman [ Wed May 02, 2007 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jeep engineers talk to us
bbertram wrote:
I found this great thread on another forum. I few people from here were posting a few questions and I found it funny. Go read all the questions and answers.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403834


They seem to avoid some of the harder questions. I saw a few CRD questions with no reply.
Author:  Reflex [ Wed May 02, 2007 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
DZL_LOU wrote:
Those are very good sales, marketing and spin doctors posing as engineers. So it makes for funny reading.

Being an engineer myself(software), and having participated in such community chats like this as a representative of a large corp, I find this response fairly insulting. When you act as a rep, you have to follow the rules. Your job is to answer the questions as best you can without exposing the corporation to any liability, or releasing any proprietary information. Its a VERY difficult balancing act. Having read that thread I was amazed at how well they accomplished that, answering legit questions while avoiding the ones posed by people with an obvious bone to pick. There is no reason to answer questions from people trying to pick a public fight.

Whether you like it or not that they have to keep proprietary information and potential liabilities out of the conversation is irrelevant, as EVERY corporation must behave this way or else they will spend all day every day in court.
Author:  DZL_LOU [ Wed May 02, 2007 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reflex wrote:
DZL_LOU wrote:
Those are very good sales, marketing and spin doctors posing as engineers. So it makes for funny reading.

Being an engineer myself(software), and having participated in such community chats like this as a representative of a large corp, I find this response fairly insulting. When you act as a rep, you have to follow the rules. Your job is to answer the questions as best you can without exposing the corporation to any liability, or releasing any proprietary information. Its a VERY difficult balancing act. Having read that thread I was amazed at how well they accomplished that, answering legit questions while avoiding the ones posed by people with an obvious bone to pick. There is no reason to answer questions from people trying to pick a public fight.

Whether you like it or not that they have to keep proprietary information and potential liabilities out of the conversation is irrelevant, as EVERY corporation must behave this way or else they will spend all day every day in court.


If your an engineer, of which I am as well then you know that nothing can irk you more than non-technical people posing as technologists and twisting information.

IF, these good folks were to fully disclose their role as sales, marketing or spin doctors then I could have respect for their opinions because they have fully disclosed their role and their position in the responses they give.

However, posing as an engineer to give the perception of technical authority to promote a brand is not ethical and this is what I find in your words to be fairly insulting to my intelligence.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed May 02, 2007 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Unless you actually understand something about the subject matter and realize what a crock of baloney it was. If you're insulted by common sense rejection of nonsense babble, so be it.
Author:  Reflex [ Wed May 02, 2007 6:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ranger1 wrote:
Unless you actually understand something about the subject matter and realize what a crock of baloney it was. If you're insulted by common sense rejection of nonsense babble, so be it.

This is my point exactly. Just because they do not give the answers that YOU think are appropriate or what you want to hear does not mean they are not engineers. Their answers were very familiar to me, carefully stated to not contradict official corporate stances and literature while still saying as much as they could to be helpful. If you know of a Fortune 500 company that allows its engineers to simply speak their mind, I'll show you a company that will soon be sued into changing that policy.
Author:  huxrules [ Wed May 02, 2007 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't know what either of you are fighting about. They sound like engineers to me - there responses were a little canned but they were also receiving stupid questions left and right. They do say that the torque reduction is 10N M only at the top gears. That sounds engineering enough to me. Plus no marketing or pr guys ever gave this info out. Although I was unsatisified with the ORM question and answer.

I personally would have asked if it was possible to put a manual tranny into our CRD's. We should try to get those guys over here for questions.
Author:  DocB [ Wed May 02, 2007 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Old Fashioned
What ever happened to a good, old fashioned, straight answer to an honest question
from someone who is seeking to understand, learn, and make the world a better place?
(Not to mention trying to maintain a $35K vehicle).
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you like that kind of [insert preferred value here] valuable information/advertising drivel/watered down trivia, you know where to find it without attempting to stir up a controversy concerning your feelings. What I think about bogus egr answers has little to do with the fact that the answer is meaningless, lacking any intrinsic value or even truth - yes, it was misleading at best, an outright lie at worst. If you can't tell the difference, what's the point of inserting ones personal feelings into the thread?
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed May 02, 2007 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Old Fashioned
DocB wrote:
What ever happened to a good, old fashioned, straight answer to an honest question
from someone who is seeking to understand, learn, and make the world a better place?
(Not to mention trying to maintain a $35K vehicle).


Exactly.
Author:  bbertram [ Wed May 02, 2007 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I posted this because I thought it was legit and I still think it is. I believe the answers they gave were good ones, they have to protect their product too. I didnt really expect this kind of response to this topic, hehe.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I believe the answers they gave were good ones,


Fair enough, now here is one of their "good answers" as you see it:
"With the EGR disabled, you can build up exhaust gasses to form sludge. Over time, this can decrease your performance. This does make the engine work harder."

Since you think this is a good answer, you must understand it clearly. So, please, explain it to some of us who think its bogus, bs, zip. Specifically, where will the exhaust gasses build up? Exactly where? How will this exhaust buildup pressure form sludge and where? How will this decrease performance? How does this make the engine work harder? Not how sludge makes an engine work harder, how sludge formed from backed up exhaust gas from a disconnected egr will decrease performance and make an engine work harder?

I look forward to your explanation.
Author:  Reflex [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ranger1 wrote:
Quote:
I believe the answers they gave were good ones,


Fair enough, now here is one of their "good answers" as you see it:
"With the EGR disabled, you can build up exhaust gasses to form sludge. Over time, this can decrease your performance. This does make the engine work harder."

Since you think this is a good answer, you must understand it clearly. So, please, explain it to some of us who think its bogus, bs, zip. Specifically, where will the exhaust gasses build up? Exactly where? How will this exhaust buildup pressure form sludge and where? How will this decrease performance? How does this make the engine work harder? Not how sludge makes an engine work harder, how sludge formed from backed up exhaust gas from a disconnected egr will decrease performance and make an engine work harder?

I look forward to your explanation.

Perhaps he, like myself, takes them at thier word. Their job isn't to explain engineering or engine design, its to answer specific questions. Which they did. You can, however, feel free to pose your more pointed answer I would presume, but they may or may not reply due to the limitations that I pointed out earlier in this thread.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quit stalling. Those questions were, unlike your responses, straightforward, and simple to answer if you have even the slightest idea of how the egr system is connected on the Liberty. If you don't understand this, then you're just dragging this charade out with more babbling.

If you can't answer a simple set of straightforward questions, I call BS on both of you.

I've sent a note to the moderator with a request to lock this thread - you know exactly what you're doing and it's not trying to share information on how to maintain our CRD's.
Author:  huxrules [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Lets all take it out of gear
I agree with Ranger1 on the EGR valve answer. It was just wrong. The engineer possibly got the EGR valve mixed up with the CCV. Thats the only part that -when blocked- could cause the symptoms that the engineer gave. As I said before it looks like the jeep engineers just went to the wrong forum. To sum the discussion up it went like this:

JeepEngineers- Hi were here to answer your questions about the Jeep Liberty KJ!
User1- What are the largest tires I can put on my Wrangler?
User2- What does the purple color wire do thats behind my dashboard on my 2000 Wrangler?
User3- I got a notice that I should replace my lower bell joints on my liberty- should I replace them?
JeepEngineers- Were here just to answer questions about the Liberty- and yes you should get your Lower BALL joints replaced.
User4- Why are the new wranglers funny looking?
User5- My wife has a liberty and she got a notice to replace her lower ball joints- should she get them replaced?
JeepEngineers- Were here just to answer questions about the Liberty- and yes your wife should get your Lower Ball joints replaced.
User6- I want to put synthetic oil in my wrangler is this a good idea.
User7- Hope to see you on the Trailz soon d00d!!!!
User8- Will jeep ever produce a wrangle that runs on fusion?

etc etc etc

after 12 pages of that we got this: 10n*m of torque reduction in top gears - a incorrect answer to the ORM question - and they never saw the fuel heater have problems while testing. No questions about the shutter.

And you should replace your lower ball joints.
Author:  onthehunt [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why argue with a person who knows everything?

I look forward to your explanation.
Author:  bbertram [ Wed May 02, 2007 10:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Holy moly, lol. I do believe the answer they gave was the wrong one. I do also believe they have to protect their butts and give an answer that will make the uninformed person believe it and scare them into not doing the ORM. Plus they didnt really engineer the motor, just everything around it. They can not tell us its ok to unplug it. I'm not trying to start anything. I read many forums, I love my CRD, I posted this link so that other people can read it and enjoy what information you can get out of it. Well, I lied, I was starting to hate my CRD but since I did the ORM I love it all over again.

I guess not alot of people in this world take people at their word anymore, I have no reason to lie to everyone and I have no reason to believe they are lieing either. If I get treated bad by that person or lied to then I dont always believe them, until then I believe everyone, not everyone is bad and out to get you.
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