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 Post subject: E-85 to improve mileage?
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:34 pm 
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As is already known to many diesel drivers alcohol injection makes more power and improves mileage significantly, but with methanol getting very expensive the payoff in economy is not worth using it. Would the 15% rug in e-85 be harmful to the CRD in the small amounts injected by a water/alcohol injection system? Oh, and I already know that E-85 cant be mixed with water.

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:21 pm 
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Sounds risky to me. I'm not sure the octane is high enough to keep it from detonating before fuel is injected.

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:24 pm 
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I've read of good results with straight water and also of course with Walmart cold weather washer fluid which is like 40% methanol

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:42 pm 
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Basically that's what they use with the high-priced injection systems from places like Snow Performance - windshield washer fluid. One website actually has a chart explaining how to interpret the temperature rating into percent methanol. One brand I spotted at Wally World advertised -25 F temp rating and also listed the VOC content - 35% methanol.

But most of these performance water/meth injection systems you can buy are set up for just that - performance - dumping in loads of water/meth mixture to make significantly higher levels of horsepower - far more than what is needed if all you're looking for is to increase efficiency and fuel mileage and the other side benefits of water injection. All you need in that case is somewhere between 1 to 10% of the actual fuel being used by the engine - ie, if our engine was using 2 gph cruising down the interstate, you'd only need a water injection rate somewhere between 0.02 and 0.2 gph - if your goal was increased efficiency and not making loads of extra horsepower.

In the new issue of Diesel World, Snow Performance is touting their new MPG MAX water/meth injection system. "New" my butt - all they did was take their existing Stage III diesel performance injection system and add a 3rd nozzle with a lower flow rate that is on more or less constantly - and it still has the higher flow nozzles in place that kick in at high boost levels (ie foot to the floor) for the "performace" crowd. And from what I've seen of the install instructions, their 3rd "economy" nozzle still has too high a flow rate IMHO, at least for anything smaller than a Cummins, Duramax, or Powerstroke.

If that ain't enough, a few years back I e-mailed a guy with Snow Performance asking about using a water/meth injection system at lower flow rates to improve efficiency and fuel economy. He flat-out told me that water/meth injection would do nothing for fuel economy - it was all about performance.

Yet here they are now advertising their injection system with a lower flow rate for boosting fuel economy. And it can be yours for the measely price of $900. I at least know which company I'm NOT buying a water injection system from.

There are places out there where you can get the info to build your own simple but just as effective water injection system for far less than what the aftermarket performance kits cost, and set it up so that it's geared for efficiency and economy instead of horsepower.

One company out in WA state called Eagle Research has a good DIY book on water injection systems for about $20, geared primarily toward efficiency and fuel economy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:56 pm 
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Right now I'm experimenting with a water/methanol VAPOR injection system on the '87 MB.

I'd used a simple bubbler jar on my old '87 Subaru gasser ('87 must have been a good year for cars, I ended up replacing one '87 with another) for water vapor injection - an instant coffee jar with tube fittings screwed into the lid, a length of hose and a bubbler attached to one that went to the bottom of the jar. A needle valve on the inlet controlled the flow of air into the jar and thru the bubbler, the outlet connected to the PCV hose and thus the intake manifold and engine vacuum which sucked air thru the bubbler.

Can't do that on a diesel - no engine vacuum. Instead of "sucking" air thru the bubbler, I needed a way to "blow" air thru the bubbler.

The '87 MB came with a factory closed CCV system - a 2 ft length of hard plastic 1/2" OD tubing, that ran from the valve cover down to it's own sleeve in the rubber air intake boot between the air filter and the turbo inlet. One of the first things I did after buying the beast was to replumb this CCV hose and install a Provent filter - after 20 years there was so much oil leaking out of that boot and the intake I initially thought the turbo drain pipe was leaking. :shock:

I had two possible sources of pressurized flow - tap off the intake manifold and use boost pressure, or use the flow from the CCV system itself - in both cases, the outlet of the bubbler would have tapped into the CCV hose downstream of the Provent going into the air intake boot.

Boost pressure with the old fixed Garrett turbo turned out to be a no go - the intake manifold turned out to actually be at a slight vacuum at idle and even when revved up in park, and runs with a temporary boost gauge showed that even at 55 to 60 mph it was only making 2 to 3 psi of boost at most - pretty much useless for anything other than high speed interstate driving as far as operating the bubbler.

But experimenting with the CCV hose showed that it had adequate flow and just enough pressure behind it, even at idle, to make a bubbler work well.

I used a 1/2 gallon plastic rubbermaid container from Wally World, and took care to make sure the fittings, hose, and bubbler fittings equaled or exceeded the diameter of the original CCV hose - definitely didn't want to end up blowing seals due to backpressure. In that regards, having the Provent installed upstream was a double blessing - not only removing the oil, but it's built-in vacuum and pressure relief valves would be an added measure of safety.

Got the bubbler jar constructed back on Sunday, and on Monday installed it, plumbing it in downstream of the outlet from the Provent, and it's outlet plumbed to the CCV hose sleeve in the air intake boot prior to the turbo.

For the fluid, I used a jug of washer fluid from Advance rated to -20 F - I'm guessing roughly 30% methanol - that cost roughly $2 for a gallon jug.

So far, I've only driven about 30 miles with it installed, in 2 or 3 short trips, nothing faster than 45 mph. No data on fuel economy yet - that will come next week when I'm back at work and put 200 miles on it - but so far on the short trips I've made, on the return leg with the engine warmed up it does seem much quieter and smoother, power delivery from a stop much more consistent. Only some real world testing will tell if this is true and that I'm not imagining a "placebo" effect.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:19 am 
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The problem with the vapor system is that there is no benefit from the water portion of the mix if it is already vaporized when it enters the intake. It can provide no cooling effect on the charge air and it takes up the space of O2 which could be used for combustion. There are two ways to get more power or economy from water/meth injection. One way is by introducing a fine droplet mist into the charge air, as it vaporizes it cools the air significantly and allows for a denser charge to enter the cylinder; more power and lower EGTs. This method is most useful in high fueling power applications and a 50/50 mix seems to be the best blend as it cools well and the alcohol helps the diesel combustion. The other way is to inject a large droplet spray as close to the intake ports as possible. When the droplets are subjected to the combustion of the fuel they literally explode into steam (1700 x volume expansion) and the alcohol component also adds to the combustion. Some charge air cooling is also effected this way and that can help lower EGTs as well.

By adding a very light E-85 mist my theory is that charge air will be cooled by the ETOH portion of it and the small amount of hydrocarbons will improve combustion the same way that propane gives an increase in MPG which positively offsets the added cost of the propane. The amount of fuel added by the mist is not enough to auto-ignite under compression but does add to the burn of the diesel.

Thoughts? Comments? Critiques?

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 Post subject: I am thinking about something like this too
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:40 pm 
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The big problem with any meth/ethanol water mixture is it will corrode the aluminum intake on our jeeps. I did a bit of looking around for the right mixture of water to methanol that won't significantly oxidize aluminum. The magic number was about 15% (some studies quoted 20%, but I would err on the side of caution) meth/ethanol, but these were in marine applications. I have been thinking about this because I want to control NOx without the use of the EGR (water injection is just as effective, but better for fuel economy). Any way I hope this is helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: I am thinking about something like this too
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Groo2 wrote:
The big problem with any meth/ethanol water mixture is it will corrode the aluminum intake on our jeeps. I did a bit of looking around for the right mixture of water to methanol that won't significantly oxidize aluminum. The magic number was about 15% (some studies quoted 20%, but I would err on the side of caution) meth/ethanol, but these were in marine applications. I have been thinking about this because I want to control NOx without the use of the EGR (water injection is just as effective, but better for fuel economy). Any way I hope this is helpful.


If you just go with the water and sans the methanol do you still get any economy improvements? Would this not be safer.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:20 pm 
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"If you just go with the water and sans the methanol do you still get any economy improvements? Would this not be safer".

I have read a couple of studies that say cold water (atomized, not vaporized) will improve fuel fuel efficiency some. They say that the water vaporizing in the combustion chamber adds a little extra oomph, but I don't recall any percentages. The problem with straight water is you have to worry about it freezing in colder climates (I hate sounding like Captain Obvious). I was thinking about using heated fuel line and small heater in the water storage tank. I just haven't had the time to experiment. Anyone else have ideas?

Thanks in advance..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:23 pm 
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"If you just go with the water and sans the methanol do you still get any economy improvements? Would this not be safer".

I have read a couple of studies that say cold water (atomized, not vaporized) will improve fuel fuel efficiency some. They say that the water vaporizing in the combustion chamber adds a little extra oomph, but I don't recall any percentages. The problem with straight water is you have to worry about it freezing in colder climates (I hate sounding like Captain Obvious). I was thinking about using heated fuel line and small heater in the water storage tank. I just haven't had the time to experiment. If nothing else this would help reduce NOx and EGTs (not trying to sound like a tree hugger, but if i am going to mod, I would like to do it responsibly) Anyone else have ideas?

Thanks in advance..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:11 am 
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e85 is 85% GASOLINE!! Vaporized gasoline is VERY unstable and VERY flamable!
Sounds like a BAD idea to me....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:29 am 
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Milner wrote:
e85 is 85% GASOLINE!! Vaporized gasoline is VERY unstable and VERY flamable!
Sounds like a BAD idea to me....
Actually it's only 15% gasoline, 85% ethanol. Your point stands though.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:31 am 
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Milner wrote:
e85 is 85% GASOLINE!! Vaporized gasoline is VERY unstable and VERY flamable!
Sounds like a BAD idea to me....


E85 is 85% Ethanol 15% gas. Hence the E in front of it. Just like B10 is 10% Biodiesel, but yes vaporized gasoline is very unstable. I won't be the person to try this one first.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:18 pm 
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bdptp73 wrote:
Milner wrote:
e85 is 85% GASOLINE!! Vaporized gasoline is VERY unstable and VERY flamable!
Sounds like a BAD idea to me....


E85 is 85% Ethanol 15% gas. Hence the E in front of it. Just like B10 is 10% Biodiesel, but yes vaporized gasoline is very unstable. I won't be the person to try this one first.


Could it be considered to be more unstable than injecting propane into the intake under great pressure? If propane were dangerous to drive around on I don't think that it would ever have been installed in police cruisers. Remember that the amount of E-85 injected would not be enough to auto ignite but rather to just give a boost to the diesel combustion.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Propane is about 110 octane rating, and E85 is around 105. Propane is slightly better in terms of resistance to pre-detonation.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:50 pm 
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UFO wrote:
Propane is about 110 octane rating, and E85 is around 105. Propane is slightly better in terms of resistance to pre-detonation.


Pre-detonation is not an issue with any kind of fuel in the amounts injected through a diesel misting system.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:48 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:
UFO wrote:
Propane is about 110 octane rating, and E85 is around 105. Propane is slightly better in terms of resistance to pre-detonation.


Pre-detonation is not an issue with any kind of fuel in the amounts injected through a diesel misting system.
Why not? The heat of compression is an issue with gasoline cars running too low octane fuel, and diesels have much more compression. As a matter of fact, the leaner the mixture is, the more likely you'll have pre-detonation.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:58 pm 
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UFO wrote:
nursecosmo wrote:
UFO wrote:
Propane is about 110 octane rating, and E85 is around 105. Propane is slightly better in terms of resistance to pre-detonation.


Pre-detonation is not an issue with any kind of fuel in the amounts injected through a diesel misting system.
Why not? The heat of compression is an issue with gasoline cars running too low octane fuel, and diesels have much more compression. As a matter of fact, the leaner the mixture is, the more likely you'll have pre-detonation.


While it is true that gasoline could never be inducted into a diesel engine at stoichiometric densities (14 to 1) because of detonation occurring well before the full compression ratio of ~17 to 1, you should remember that in addition to temperature all fuels also need to have a minimum density in order for combustion to occur. This density is usually measured in parts per million or PPM. The minimum concentration of gasoline vapor that can burn by itself is somewhere around 17000 PPM or 1.7 percent fuel weight compared to the weight of the air it is mixed with. When any hydrocarbon (propane, alcohol, gasoline, CNG, etc) is injected into a diesel engine's intake at less than these critical concentrations it cannot self ignite but when another fuel source is added, IE...diesel, it contributes to the total amount of hydrocarbon particles available at the beginning of the diesel injection event and has an effect similar to using a higher cetane fuel.

Now, the trick is to determine how much E-85 is too much and what flow per minute @ x RPM and MAP will achieve the highest return on fuel used to gain in HP.

So no, if E-85 were to be injected at the appropriate amount, no pre-detonation can occur.

MY initial question was asking more about whether any other unforseen problems could occur such as abnormaly high
EGTs.

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