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Really hard cold starts..and I mean cold
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28126		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  drharv [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Really hard cold starts..and I mean cold
My Jeeplet has been awesome since the debacle in the summer (IP, computer, sensors etc) but has now decided that it does not like starting in cold weather. I bought the thing lasst January and it was fine during last winter but not now. Symptoms are as follows:

1) Glow plug indicator illuminates for the "normal" amount of time (I still think it is too short)
2) Cranks over at a normal cold engine pace
3) Fires on the third through fifth revolution but immediately stalls
4) Belches great and terrible amounts of cold smoke (grey/white diesel)
5) Starts the best with extended cranking times while the other cylinders get hot enough to ignite the diesel

Basically it starts like an old diesel tractor that does not have glow plugs; you know the one that needed a shot of magic vapour before it would fire.
I think one or more of theplugs is weak or dead and it is not tripping a CEL and it is not allowing for adequate heat to build in the cylinder before the fuel is injected. And this drive by wire throttle does not allow for input while it is "almost started" like old school mechanical inkages.

On the weekend it was minus 26 celcious and I was the designated starter of vehicles in the early morning. One 2007 Dodge 3500 5.9L, one 2004 VW Jetta 1.9L TDI and the Jeep-ette. Dodge - one cycle of the preheater (many seconds) and bam! Fired right up. VW - GPs on for 15 seconds and vroom! Jeep - GP indicated for 5 seconds max and it started eventually after many minutes of cranking and multiple GP cycles.

Anyway, it is off to the dealer for some more work, still under warranty, and hopefully has new GPs or a controller or both. I am tired of starting a new modern vehicle like starting old farm equipment.

BTW, it does start better when plugged in, but not like it should.
Author:  litton [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hopefully there is a small GP problem and not something else. Let's see, -26C is about -14F.....still pretty chilly. Last time I was in Albeta was at a place called Cold Lake and it was -47. C or F?? but at that temp who cares, just bloody cold. What was interesting was that the diesel trucks at the motel were just left running all night. One chap said he had not shut his off for over a month!!!
Author:  chadhargis [ Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's cold here for Tennessee. It's supposed to dip into the teens tonight. I have the block heater plugged in and a Battery Tender on the battery. I should be in good shape in the morning.
Author:  Uffe [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Oh bugger - tough luck on you mate :(

Mine starts fine when cold, but you can clearly hear the engine tumbles around for the first 30 seconds until the oil has been pressurized and the cylinder walls are properly heated. Those first 30 seconds are probably what you are fighting with compression heat, which is a real PITA.

Hope your dealer gets you some more hardcore GPs and is able to update the controller for it.

I had a lot of GP problems with my old Patrol, I ended up soldering a new wire into a relay and manually had to depress a tiny switch at the dashboard I installed to force enough pre-heating. Unfortunatly I lost all after-heating so I had to tap the switch when I got the engine running at first :D

Hope you don't have to do the same :(
Author:  hawk521 [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject: 
A couple of thoughts...

1. I have read that although the GP lamp goes out quickly, the GPs themselves continue to heat for another 15+/- seconds. Is this really true? Hard to know without more testing than I'm willing to do on a very cold morning - but if true - it might be useful to wait an extra 3-4 seconds past the extinquishing of the GP lamp.

2. It was 16 degrees F this morning. My GP lamp stayed on for about 3 full seconds (the longest I have ever noticed). I counted slowly to 5 after the GP lamp went out and turned the engine over. It fired on about the 3rd revolution (not bad for 16F) and stumbled a couple of seconds then idled fine. Was making more diesel clatter than on a warm day - but that was well within my expectations. I love the clatter - makes it sound like it means business! :)

On the slow drive out of my neighborhood, the water temp reached 85F at the 1/2 mile mark. After 1 mile it was at 115F and producing adequate cabin heat. All-in-all not bad for a puppy diesel. It is only 4 miles to where I work. Was right at 155F when I shut it off in the parking lot. On less cold mornings it always reaches max temp (~165F) by the time I get to work.

Hawk521
Author:  Uffe [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
hawk521 wrote:
A couple of thoughts...

1. I have read that although the GP lamp goes out quickly, the GPs themselves continue to heat for another 15+/- seconds. Is this really true? Hard to know without more testing than I'm willing to do on a very cold morning - but if true - it might be useful to wait an extra 3-4 seconds past the extinquishing of the GP lamp.

Hawk521


If not it would be the only diesel car in the world without the after-heat feature. This is used to keep the cylinder temperatures up while the engine has just started. Normally when cold starting a diesel engine the glow plugs heat up the chamber enough to let the compression detonate the diesel charge. When the engine is stone cold and the glow plugs go out, the cylinder walls and piston will absorb the heat and reducing the temperature below the detonation temperature EVEN when compression kicks in. The GPs stay on in this period until the cylinder walls are warmed up enough to support the self-combustion process of the diesel engine.

Normally the computer measures the water temperature and calculates the time required until the cylinder wall is hot enough and uses that time to after-heat when the engine has first started. The cycle kicks in when the RPM goes above a certain threshold so you don't waste time while cranking the engine with the starter.

When you don't crank the engine after the pre-heat system has stopped, the after-heat system starts with maximum time to support the slow people who don't immidiately turn the key to start the engine.

What happens with combinations of these two I don't know :D
Author:  chrispitude [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
So you have to wait until the GP light goes out, but it helps to wait a few more seconds before turning the key?

- Chris
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
when it's cold (not here in Phoenix but up in the mountains) I turn the key on for ~10 seconds, shut off for ~10 seconds then on again for ~10 then start. Seems to make some difference....

or maybe it's purely my imagination :lol:

Gary
Author:  nix [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhoenixCRD wrote:
I turn the key on for ~10 seconds, shut off for ~10 seconds then on again for ~10 then start. Seems to make some difference....

I did that this morning when I started up my CRD and it fired off immediately.. whereas in the past it would take 5 cycles to start... so.. it makes a difference for me at least!
Author:  vtdog [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
-4F here this morning. Started right up, waited 30 sec and drove away. I have yet to use the plug in heater.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
18 F here this morning and the princess started it with no problem. I just tell her to turn the key to on a few seconds then start for she is clueless about the glow plug light. She does tell me something is wrong when the yellow picture of the fuel pump comes on and I have to fix it. :roll:
Author:  MRausch82 [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
18 F here this morning and the princess started it with no problem. I just tell her to turn the key to on a few seconds then start for she is clueless about the glow plug light. She does tell me something is wrong when the yellow picture of the fuel pump comes on and I have to fix it. :roll:

17 degrees here in Delaware this AM. Went out and started it for my wife. It fired right up. Let it idle for a minute or two and she drove to work. Didn't use the block heater, didn't need to.
Author:  ColoradoCRD [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
The first winter of CRD ownership the coldest I attempted to start was -11F. No particular problem. The second winter, during the first cold snap, I had great difficulty starting at a warmer temperature of about +1F. When I finally started after about 20 attempts, I experienced billowing black smoke. Why the difficulty in starting in cold yet warmer temperatures that I previously experienced? I won't ever know for sure, but I believe that the diesel fuel accounted for the change.

I did two things afterwards. I changed my diesel supply. Secondly, I consistently add white Power Service in the cold months which significantly lowers gelling temperature.

Hopefully, your problem is only a fuel problem.
Author:  CHevy06 [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Up here in North Dakota i have seen around -20 to -25 and after it sits all night it will start half way decent. It will sputter a little but starts and runs fine. There has been a few times latley i havent plugged it in before starting it.
Author:  Uffe [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Anyone thinks this can be related to air in the fuel system caused by bad fuel primer/heater unit?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:00 am ]
Post subject: 
A clean/new air fiter might help also. My CRD spends nights in a garage that never getts below 40 degrees and at 40 I notice it's a little cranky :lol:

It sat out yesterday and it was 20 :shock: Supprise, it started much easier :D Nothing near ZERO though and the block heater cord is still tywrapped to the dip stick :wink:
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Since we're all guessing...
If yours is like mine, you AGM battery is going bad and leaking charge. If my battery is recently charged, it does better. I have charge it every couple starts in the extreme (sub 20F) cold...especially if I have mostly short jaunts where the battery does not have time to replenish what's left of its reserves. I'm just trying to get my battery to last until next fall and I'll replace it. I don't know if this part is another victim to the bad idler puller/trashed alternator but I have my suspicions. Yes, I am using a charger with an AGM setting.

This does not explain your ORM on/off scenario but it does explain why mine does not start as well as it should.
Boiler
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