Help! Truck is down with water in fuel

bardwell02 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:20 pm

I need some advice. It's a 2005 CRD with 40k miles. Saturday I filled up a nearly empty tank, the truck ran fine for 50 or 60 highway miles. Once home it sat for a couple hours. I started it and ran about 1/4 mile before it stalled. This cycle repeated again, with a CEL. I took it home and parked it. The next day I drove to the dealer, about 6 miles, it seemed to run okay. This is a new dealer for me. They are saying that the CEL is related to high fuel rail pressure, and that there's a substantial amount of water in the fuel. Their assessment is that I need at least one injector, a fuel control actuator, and a fuel rail module. Big $. I already called the fuel retailer and filed a claim. My questions are:

- has anyone had this happen, and was the damage similar? I'm looking at several thousand in repairs.

- this claim process, has anyone been through it? I'm sick at the thought of being without my truck.

- what are the chances this is old damage, NOT related to this fill up? The truck has run okay, mileage has been consistent, but I always thought it smoked pretty heavily at times.

- big technical question - why no 'water in fuel' alarm???

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:59 am

Get them to show you the fuel analysis they performed that proves water in fuel, voiding the 5yr 70kmi warranty - the service manager cannot just guess on that

Could be an injector failed - they do that, being an electro-mechanical thingy - could be the FCV\TV failed, also with the e-m thing

Could be fuel manager head decided to expire, leaking vast quantities of negative vacuum - they can test that with a simple vacuum guage on the head: less than 1" vacuum = leak

Could be you picked up a load of bad fuel, requiring a fuel filter change - they can test that with a simple vacuum guage on the fuel manager head: greater than 10"HG = plugged fuel filter

High rail pressure could be the Fuel Control Valve at the rear of the rail is plugged\dirty, or failing - it controls fuel return to the tank

Could also be the Fuel Quantity Soenoid on the CP3 IP is plugged\dirty - could also be the Rail Pressure sensor is failing

ECM reads Rail Pressure sensor, opens FQS\closes FCV more to raise pressure, closes FQS\opens FCV more to reduce pressure - it's a merry menage a trois that usually works quite well amongst itself - really dirty fuel would throw it off

05infernoCRDL · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:43 am

there is a WIF (water in fuel) light on the dash... i believe it is a tank with water droplets in it... when that light is on you drain the water out of the filter with the valve on the botom of the filter i think.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:27 pm

I've run diesel with water, gasoline, just about anything you can think through these engines and haven't had a failure such as this. Engines for the US market have a "wear package" coating installed on the rail, injectors, pump so that contaminants such as this don't affect component life.

A little bit smoky could be an injector that's flowing more than supposed to, but rail pressure higher than supposed to be would most definately cause smoking issues and I'd put my money on that with either the sensor or the pressure control valve on rail going bad slowly. I doubt that the issue is the valve on the pump since there are some governor states where the control is strictly MPROP (pump valve) and if this were bad then you'd have severe rail instability and it'd run like crapola.

I would guess that the Pressure Control Valve at the end of the rail is sticking since the fuel system uses a 2-governor system to control rail pressure (metering valve on pump + valve on rail).

Could also be a bad sensor on the rail. I forget if these are terribly expensive, I might be able to help you out.

In any case I'd try either some HEET or 911 to dry the water out of the fuel or get the tank drained and good fuel put in.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:45 pm

A clogged fuel filter, or one that's full of air, can cause the stalling you reported and throw a CEL as well all by itself. Been there, done that. P0093 or P0039 was the code if I remember correctly.

Dealer tried a similar line of BS with me as well - told me that the gas station had screwed up and had gasoline mixed in with their diesel. Station I'd got it from also supplied the county and state vehicles in the area and the city transit line - I checked with these people and they said BS, had never had any problems like that from that supplier. Didn't know any better at the time, ended up eating $300 for the dealer draining and flushing the fuel system, but later experience and knowledge taught me I could have cured the problem myself for the cost of a new fuel filter.

Not saying this particular dealer is trying to screw you over, but just to be on the safe side -

Go back to the dealer and either pull a fuel sample YOURSELF or ask to go out with the tech and witness him pulling a fuel sample in a clean dry container that you provide, and have it analyzed yourself. Be diplomatic about it - tell them you need to have the evidence in hand, an undisputed fuel sample and analysis report from an independent 3rd party before you go to the station and ask them to cover the cost of repairs. You'll need this even if the dealer is being completely honest, along with the receipt from purchasing the fuel, to get any money out of the station owner if it indeed was water contaminated or bad fuel that caused the problem.

Ask them specifically what code or codes were recorded. If as much stuff was screwed up as they're claiming, seems that it would have thrown multiple codes. If the only one they give you is the P0093/39 code I mentioned above, I'd suspect there's nothing more wrong than a crappy tank of fuel and a clogged fuel filter, especially if the beast ran fine on the way to the dealer - could be all they need to do is drain and flush the tank and give you a new fuel filter and send you on your way.

Sound like the exact same M.O. as on mine - filled it up, then 50 miles later it started stalling out if I tried pushing it above a certain speed/fuel flow, kept running as long as I kept it below a certain speed.

bugnout · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:28 pm

bardwell02 wrote:

- big technical question - why no 'water in fuel' alarm???

The WIF sensor is positioned at the bottom of the fuel filter and supposedly there is a screen at the bottom that helps separate the water out. I've never seen the WIF indicator light except at startup. I don't think its designed well, probably takes a filter full of water to set it off.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:59 pm

I know everyone is tired of hearing me say it...but...did you check the fuel heater plug on the fuel filter? A ton of are getting in (from burned-out heaters scorching plug area) could cause the stall you mention. Test it by pulling out the plug (if you don't know which it is, pull out both plugs on the filter head). Pump the filter head pump and look for air bubbles or leaking fuel.

Running long enough on "air" could screw up the injectors and pump bigtime.

as for water in fuel....Trust me, if the fuel retailer is going to pay up, they are going to want a fuel sample. You might as well pull a few samples for yourself.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:05 pm

X3 about getting a sample of that fuel. Preferably one from the fuel line and one from the drain on the filter. Something smells very fishy here. If the rail pressure was so high that it threw a code it would also be smoking substantially. If an injector was sticking shut there would be a very noticeable mis. If it were stuck open there would be a LOT of smoke. None of the problems that the dealer told that you had are likely to cause stalling or be intermittent except water in the fuel and all of the problems mentioned would have made the computer to go into limp mode. If you drove 6 miles to the stealer without limp it did not have all of the problems that they said it did. I'm with retmill on this one plugged filter or air in line, both of which will cause the same code. You did not mention how cold it was when you had your problems with stalling. If the temperature was extremely cold you could have had iceing or waxing in the lines as well.

blake1827 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:51 pm

The WIF definately works, even though I have a CAT filter I have it zip tied off behind the puck and have had it come on/then shut off after a 30 seconds after going through a car wash.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:25 pm

Some techs do a diagnosis and come up with a solution. With out seeing the CRD we are all just speculating based upon our experience. I suspect they are trusting the scanner too much and aren't smart enough to tell when it is lying to them. I have fixed a lot of problems by cleaning or fixing bad connector plugs. What they told you sounds more like fly fishing than troubleshooting.
Get another eyes and hands on opinion from another place :!:

Steve

bardwell02 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:44 pm

Thanks so much for the feedback. Their 'estimate' is $5871.86. That's with all 4 injectors being replaced at $792 apiece. Among the stuff that was flung at me today was the story of an '03 Cummins that was totalled out over an 11k fuel system repair bill. I think the tech flunked my BS test though. When I asked if an air leak at the filter head could cause the same codes (PO39 and PO88 were mentioned) I was told, no, that if that was the case fuel would be leaking out. Isn't the fuel filter assembly under suction, and that's the whole issue with air leaks?

The water in fuel light never came on, which is bugging me. Especially since I was looking at doing the CAT2 filter mod last summer, but decided against it since I didn't want to lose that function!

Curiously, I am now in possession of a mason jar full of a cloudy liquid about the color of chicken soup. And I stopped by the station on the way home yesterday, 2 hours after I first called and they had the pumps bagged already. I had considered trying to get a sample from there as well. It's been very dry here, but their parking lot has water running everywhere! Coming out of both ends of the car wash, puddling on the other side of the tanks and pumps. I got a bunch of pictures on my cellphone. If the water in fuel is confirmed, I think they're sunk. But the sample doesn't show any separation, just this cloudy mess. I have no idea how to get it tested, though.

I think the best advice I've seen here is: second opinion. I'm wondering if I should just show up unannounced with a wrecker and take it away. Probably owe them some $ if I do that. I'm also half thinking of just having it drained, replacing the filter, and seeing if it will run.

Anyone have a dealer in Dallas they can recommend?

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:52 am

your cat dealer down there should have a SOS lab that can test your fuel. Not sure on the cost but i would think it would be less than 20 bucks since they run oil samples for 10 to 15 bucks

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:27 am

Set the jar on a flat surface on a paper towel in a warmer than winter ambience, leave it untouched till manana, take a look at it without touching the jar, see if any precipitation, or phase separation, etc

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:53 am

Did you see the fuel come from the tank of your vehicle? Having worked in a dealer service shop I know that "some" dealers are not above "accdentaly" leaving a fuel sample in the rain. I have seen coolent added to oil when the work volume was low. These guys have already gotten caught feeding you a line of BS about fuel system air leak symptoms. Also you first had 1 bad injector and now 4 bad ones? I would not let them touch my car with a ten foot pole. By all means get a second opinion from a shop with a certified CRD tech. You also had the right idea about first draining the tank, installing a new filter and starting with fresh fuel. You will have to get that done anyway if there is indeed water in the fuel. the codes you mentioned are probably p0339 and p0088 there are no three digit trouble codes. p0088= fuel rail pressure too high and p0339=crankshaft position sensor circuit intermittent, incorrect or missing signal.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:15 pm

That may have been P0039 instead of 339. But I'm fairly certain on mine that it was a P0093 that was associated with the fuel problems.

If there's as much water in that fuel as they're claiming, it will definitely separate out if left sitting overnight and form a layer in the bottom of the jar.

Still, definitely get it tested - a Cat or Cummins service center as was mentioned should be able to do it, or at least steer you to someone in the area who can.

Also second the motion that you VERIFY that sample is definitely from your vehicle and hasn't been tampered with. From the "cloudy chicken noodle soup" description, and what you described of the service station itself, it's starting to sound like even money between the dealer taking you for a ride, or the service station selling crappy fuel.

Could end up being BOTH - the service station is selling crappy fuel, and the dealer is using this as an excuse to sock you with a repair bill far above and beyond what's required to fix the vehicle.

One possible scenario you could use - tell the dealer you don't have the funds to do a complete repair as they're proposing right now. Ask them to drain and flush the tank and fuel system and change out the filters, to get the vehicle mobile again and get it home until such time as you can afford a full-up repair. Once you have it back, take it to another mechanic and get their take on the situation. Also note how the vehicle drives and whether or not the codes reoccur - could be that clean fuel and a new set of filters is all that's needed to set the beast right.

If the second mechanic confirms their diagnosis, the fuel sample analysis confirms you had bad fuel, and it continues to have problems and throws the same codes even with good fuel and filters, then you have my sympathies because at that point you're going to be in for some expensive work and a fun time dealing with the station owner getting the money back for repairs to your vehicle.

bardwell02 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:35 pm

Well, I'm not sure it's water, it's sure not settling out of the jar like I expected. But it's also not exactly diesel, the insurance adjuster agreed with me. I called the local Cat dealer, but they don't have their own fuel sampling program, and the place they use would be about $500, not really something I can justify.

At this point, I'm going to let them have at it. I called my plan B dealer, and their reaction ('Hey ___, can we work on a Liberty turbodiesel... no, seriously, really?...yeah, we can.') did not instill confidence. My insurance will cover it and go after the gas company for it. They seem to think only one injector needs to be replaced (no idea how they come to that understanding). I share some of your suspicions that I may have a filter head air leak. I never had any issues (including the 55 mph 'shudder') until I had my old dealer change the filter a few thousand miles back. Then, occasionally, accelerating up to highway speeds, I'd get it. But assuming they get it back to me in running condition, I'll tackle that diagnosis myself.

Overall, given my early build date, I've had few problems. But with the exception of the F37 recall, every dealer service experience was bad. Oil changes and diff oil changes would result in leaks, or overfilling. My EGR replacement resulted in some kind of leak as well.

I think if I keep it, I'll have to justify a lift pump, ORM, provent, etc. etc. If not, well, I'm already finding myself staring at FJ Cruisers.

Thanks so much for everyone's advice, from day one (back in 2004) the support community for this thing has been really cool.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:45 pm

Make sure that you have to be fully satisfied with the repair before it is over. Insurance adjusters are not technicians but negotiators who try to control costs. Your stance should be that you want the CRD fixed right no matter how much or how little it costs.
Then have an experienced tech check it out even if you need to drive it a ways from home.

Good Luck,

Steve

Help! Truck is down with water in fuel

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