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I bought the CRD today!
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30812		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  aslostasyou [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  I bought the CRD today!
Love it! Absolutely Love it! It's much smaller than my Land Rovers but I'll get used to it... Going from 11MPG to 22+ is a feat all in it's own and worth the smaller space IMOP. Plus, when I convert it to Vegi oil I'll be burnin for free!

Lots and lots to do... :D
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Congrats on the purchase!

there are rumors that the CRD's setup is not good with VO.
Author:  honey_don't [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
^^^^agreed

Please do plenty of objective research prior to deciding to run SVO or WVO in your high pressure direct injection engine!
Author:  Desert_Busa [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I bought the CRD today!
aslostasyou wrote:
Love it! Absolutely Love it! It's much smaller than my Land Rovers but I'll get used to it... Going from 11MPG to 22+ is a feat all in it's own and worth the smaller space IMOP. Plus, when I convert it to Vegi oil I'll be burnin for free!

Lots and lots to do... :D


This is a great little goat you'll enjoy it. Check out the mpg threads, since you're a flat lander it should be possible to achieve mileage in the high 20's to mid 30's. As for the veggie I have been researching it and greasel looks to have a nice kit and some info on it. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the last couple of posts. I have ran 60/40 diesel/ veg in the summer and didn't notice anything unusual. If the oil is 160F+ and clean, the pump and injectors should not be a problem.

Here is some info on a conversion:

http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/produc ... s_jeep.php

Looks pretty easy to build. I would incorporate a turbo timer for switching to diesel. This may not be possible due to the chip key.
Author:  Reflex [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just tossing in that several of the more technical members of the forum have stated in previous threads that this is not a good vehicle for WVO/SVO. But hey, its your money.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Welcome!
What year is yours? The reason I ask is the 05's seem capable of highter mileage then the 06's :lol: As a person who averaged very near 50 in a tdi I'm only averaging near 20 MPG :shock: But like you I owned a few Cherokees that got 11 like your Rover. BTW I onced owned a 1966 Land Rover :lol:
Author:  Desert_Busa [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reflex wrote:
Just tossing in that several of the more technical members of the forum have stated in previous threads that this is not a good vehicle for WVO/SVO. But hey, its your money.


This can be looked at from the other side, $4 a gallon of diesel versus close to free oil. But hey, it's your money.
Author:  kcfoxie [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Congrats! We love our Liberty too, we've had it almost a month now.

I will say that ANY high pressure diesel (TDI, CRD, CDI) isn't a good candidate. Technically, and for a while, it will certainly work. However you're going to be stuck on 3000 mile oil changes, and likely cutting the life of the engine into a third of what it would be on Biodiesel or Petroleum Diesel.

However, if you're mechanically inclined... or you want to prove us wrong... or both! Please, do go forward. I just like to heed caution to new diesel owners, ideal grease cars don't have turbo chargers or pressurize above 16,000PSI (think pre-1996 VW/Mercedes diesel).
Author:  Reflex [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Desert_Busa wrote:
Reflex wrote:
Just tossing in that several of the more technical members of the forum have stated in previous threads that this is not a good vehicle for WVO/SVO. But hey, its your money.


This can be looked at from the other side, $4 a gallon of diesel versus close to free oil. But hey, it's your money.

So for 'close to free oil' I sacrifice my $25k vehicle. What a bargain.
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
kcfoxie wrote:
Congrats! We love our Liberty too, we've had it almost a month now.

I will say that ANY high pressure diesel (TDI, CRD, CDI) isn't a good candidate. Technically, and for a while, it will certainly work. However you're going to be stuck on 3000 mile oil changes, and likely cutting the life of the engine into a third of what it would be on Biodiesel or Petroleum Diesel.

However, if you're mechanically inclined... or you want to prove us wrong... or both! Please, do go forward. I just like to heed caution to new diesel owners, ideal grease cars don't have turbo chargers or pressurize above 16,000PSI (think pre-1996 VW/Mercedes diesel).


SVO/WVO is fine with turbocharged engines. most of the post 1980 mercedes are diesel in this country.
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Bosch ECM can't quite decide whether it likes minimum 160deg fuel or not - resultant limp mode is not a fun experience............
Author:  Desert_Busa [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reflex wrote:
Desert_Busa wrote:
Reflex wrote:
Just tossing in that several of the more technical members of the forum have stated in previous threads that this is not a good vehicle for WVO/SVO. But hey, its your money.


This can be looked at from the other side, $4 a gallon of diesel versus close to free oil. But hey, it's your money.

So for 'close to free oil' I sacrifice my $25k vehicle. What a bargain.


Welcome to LOSTKJs it's hard to believe anyone here... It's a discussion forum. I go by facts, pictures, and links to other creditable websites. These are the ones to trust. I don't claim anything. There are some great contributors on this site. To bad I have a job and enjoy bikes more then hacking 1's and 0's.

Reflex is a stereo installer posting crap. Look through her posts a lot are the same as above.

Reflex: Be a contributor. Go find some facts. Example post some links to people are having issues using WVO or SVO. I would like to see these. I know Golden fuel systems had an issue, but the motor was ran out of oil. The link was a for sale link on youtube. The link is no longer available :evil: Oil is an issue with the Jeep... check it occasionally. See anything on the Provent or other similar mods.

I have seen another install in Alaska that supposedly worked out... but I can't find the link...

Another example of frybird conversion
http://www.frybrid.com/liberty.htm
Author:  Desert_Busa [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
kcfoxie wrote:
Congrats! We love our Liberty too, we've had it almost a month now.

I will say that ANY high pressure diesel (TDI, CRD, CDI) isn't a good candidate. Technically, and for a while, it will certainly work. However you're going to be stuck on 3000 mile oil changes, and likely cutting the life of the engine into a third of what it would be on Biodiesel or Petroleum Diesel.

However, if you're mechanically inclined... or you want to prove us wrong... or both! Please, do go forward. I just like to heed caution to new diesel owners, ideal grease cars don't have turbo chargers or pressurize above 16,000PSI (think pre-1996 VW/Mercedes diesel).


Mechanically inclined yes, and a byte herder. Those old cars don't have much power.

I am going forward on this... even if there's evidence that I shouldn't. Maybe we'll have to do a work around. From what I've read there isn't anything concrete against it. I don't believe it will cut the life on anything with clean oil. I'm not a 100% believer but clean oil shouldn't cause any issues so long as it meets the viscosity. This is where I believe there may be issues with the computer, but diesel changes viscosity with temperature.... From experience (yeah right he's from az) when it's cold out the jeep won't move out of it's own way(down in the negative F's). Being that the average temp is well over 100F here for a few months, I believe it will work fine. Maybe it should be heated to 200F... Anybody have some experience with this? We should be able to make it 240F without cause for concern (flash point check wikiality). Although heating it to here cheaply might be difficult (exhaust possibilities while running off diesel?). The wheels are turning, but my first step is to find the source of free oil.

For you nay sayers out there... I used the word believe a few times. Somebody prove me wrong, and I'll keep riding my bike :D
Author:  Reflex [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Um, stereo installer? I installed my own stereo, true, but its not my profession. As I've stated elsewhere, I'm a software engineer.

And I'm sorry your so offended by me pointing out that several of the more technical members of this forum have stated that WVO/SVO applications are bad for this specific engine. Thats all I did, I pointed out that its come up several times and the more technical members have said its a problem with the CRD. Your still free to do what you wish, I didn't say you weren't, but for a *new owner* they should certainly be aware that some of the more technical members believe that this is very risky.

This is especially true when it is fairly clear judging by this paticuliar new owner's other posts that they have no understanding of this engine at all, rushing into overhauls of the fuel system would be foolish when they aren't even aware that it has an intercooler. I refer you to this thread so you can see why I'm advising caution: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=30813
Author:  JL Rockies [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have been in the Car Audio industry since 1991. That was kind of a douchey thing to post.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Well,

Clean, Dry oil is needed. Can't run lard unless you heat it properly. Blending works. See the infopop bio-d site for details.

1. Running an "unapproved" fuel 86's your warranty.

2. Experimental fuel is, well..... experimental.

3. Are you just looking for "almost free fuel"? Or, do you have more at heart. Maintaining a steady supply of CLEAN - DRY - WVO takes time and attention to detail.

I often wonder why when someone tells me, "Can't be done - Don't do it" or "Oh boy, that will cost you" what is their agenda?

WVO does run in the Libby. WVO runs in high pressure CRD's. There are some precautions. The nay sayers nneeevveeerrr get a bad tank of #2 I'm sure.

70% or more of the autos in Europe are diesel. Why is that? If diesels were sooo prone to failure they simply wouldn't be used. The U.S. has been fed a load of crap about diesels. (Constant Rhetoric About Pollution) The VM engines have been used in everything from our Libbys to trollers. Along with a host of other commercial applications. No, not the 2.8L that was made for us.

If you can't stomach a $6K repair bill for an IP that dies early... Then experimenting isn't for you.

15K miles/year / 24 mpg X $4/gallon #2 = $2500 Just to put things into perspective.

FWIW - C.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Go ahead and heat your veg oil mix to 200 or 240 degrees. As soon as it hits the fuel temp sensor at the filter, the ECM is going to put you into limp mode or full engine shutdown, and you're not going anywhere.

Do a search on threads about fuel temperature and fuel coolers. MrMopar64 related that when the fuel temp sensor sees a fuel supply temp of 170 F, it will put the engine into limp mode. From my own personal experience, I'm well inclined to believe that once fuel temp starts going much above 120 F the ECM starts drastically adjusting fueling and engine output in an attempt to reduce fuel temp and protect the injection pump, injectors, and other system components. Many of these components use the fuel itself for lubrication, and fuel that is too hot and thin doesn't lubricate very well.

My advice would be to order a copy of the FSM and garner all it has to offer concerning the fuel and injection systems. If memory serves, the 170 F limp mode setpoint is mentioned in the FSM, as well as stating that the ECM does use fuel temp to adjust engine parameters.

If nothing else, from what I've seen after nearly 3 years living with this beast, if the fuel temp is too far outside the ECM's "confort zone", either too hot or too cold, it will drastically and negatively affect fuel economy.

And given that the cost of an individual injector and the CP3 injection pump is well into the four figure range, any mistakes with a WVO/SVO conversion WILL BE quite expensive.

I'm in full agreement with Reflex on this one - IMHO, this vehicle is NOT the best candidate for a successful WVO/SVO setup. The cost for engine repairs alone if you don't get it right would easily exceed the purchase price of an older MB diesel, which have been quite successfully converted to straight WVO/SVO operation.
Author:  dieseltoyz [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:23 am ]
Post subject: 
I talk many more people out of doing veg oil installs than the other way around. Making your own biodiesel just isn't that hard and it is a much more controlled method of production than using just WVO. We are an installer for Greasecar, Plantdrive, and a few others so I can say that I have seen everyone's kit and they each have their pros and cons. Ironically, I believe the only people who should have WVO systems installed on their vehicles are those who have the ability to install them themselves. How's that for a sales pitch? ;)
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  the FSM on fuel Temp page 1616
"FUEL TEMPERATURE SENSOR

DESCRIPTION

The fuel temperature sensor is integrated into the
fuel filter housing, along side of the fuel heater. The
sensor detects the temperature of the fuel and supplies
that information to the ECM. The sensor ranges
from - 40°F (- 40C) to 284°F (140°C). If the engine is
cold, the actual value sent will read ambient temperature.
The value rises after the engine has been
started. The fuel temerature sensor IS NOT SER-
VICED separate from the housing assembly.

OPERATION

An negative temperature coefficient (NTC) resistor
integrated in the fuel temperature sensor alters it’s
electrical resistance in line with the fuel temperature
(the resistance drops as the temperature rises). The
ECM uses this reading to calculate optimum engine
performance under all driving conditions. If the fuel
is to warm, the rail pressure in the system is lowered.
The controlled quantity of the fuel rail pressure
solenoid is reduced and the fuel temperature is lowered"

Straight from the FSM (misspellings and all).... one would
imagine if the temp gets too low or too high retmil64, et all, are
correct, the vehicle will probably go into limp mode. I have been
in limp mode, it is no fun.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:34 am ]
Post subject: 
dieseltoyz wrote:
I talk many more people out of doing veg oil installs than the other way around. Making your own biodiesel just isn't that hard and it is a much more controlled method of production than using just WVO. We are an installer for Greasecar, Plantdrive, and a few others so I can say that I have seen everyone's kit and they each have their pros and cons. Ironically, I believe the only people who should have WVO systems installed on their vehicles are those who have the ability to install them themselves. How's that for a sales pitch? ;)


That is exactly correct. Because there is no "one size fits all" for a wvo "kit". No matter who sells the kit.

I however am not a big fan of bio-d. Good quality bio-d is a little harder than making a 1 liter "Dr. Pepper" method batch.

Clean the wvo, dry it, then titrate it, mix methoxide, heat oil, introduce methoxide. Mix. Settle, drain glycerin. Demeth (recover) methanol. wash and dry bio-d. Do 3/27 test if bio-d passes Yeah! final filter and run it. it only takes a week to make 20-30 gallons. That is, unless you have enough room to continuous process. BTW - methanol prices are $4 - $5 / gallon KOH cheap by comparison all in all Bio-d costs a little over $1/gallon. And, unless you are using a feed stock that stays liquid in winter temps B80 is max. I didn't run higher than B50.

Blended wvo:

Clean wvo, dry it. Final filter it. Mix it with your favorite solvent. Mine is rug 20%(winter) with a few ounces of cetane boost. mix it all up, and pour it in. No long term testing yet and haven't gone over V50 either. Cost is under $1/gallon. I can have 100 gallons on hand, clean and dry. Takes 1/2 - hr to mix each tank full.

There ain't no such thing as "free" fuel. You either pay for #2 or you make your own and what $$$ you save, you are investing sweat equity.

The discussion about the ecm changing things up with "hot" fuel is interesting. I haven't run a 2-tank system yet because of the "warranty" (hah). But, I have blended and run bio-d.

I won't say NO, don't use it. You have to have the stomach (risk tolerance) to do it.

C.
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