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TSB 21-016-05 and what a difference
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Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  TSB 21-016-05 and what a difference
Had TSB 21-016-05 done this afternoon and all the clunking or hard shifts are gone. The offending filter looked like a small spin-on oil filter for a Toyota Echo, anyway it only took about 2 hrs with me watching and asking questions.

They also put RTV sealer around the dipstick tube where it enters the trans to prevent water from getting into the transmission. The tech showed me how it was designed to seal and I could not believe any idiot would have put that type of seal in for a transmission. It's just a rubber sleeve that fits in the tranny and the dipstick tube goes into the sleeve, they had same problem with the tranny's on the LX cars.

I've got an appointment to have my Magnum in tomorrow for the RTV fix so it doesn't get water in the tranny either, because it has the same seal. D/C came out with a new seal that's no better then the orginal seal and all the dealers were to seal them with RTV. I this case it was bad design by MB, as they have the same seal in their transmissions. I was looking at a new 5sp tranny for a 300C, it was still in the crate from MB, and they (MB) had sealed it with RTV around the outside of the tube. Go figure. I bet some MB folks with $50k to $80k cars would drop a brick if they knew that had been done to their transmissions.
Author:  RedJeepCRD [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
So why did you take it in. Did you take it in to have the studder fixed?

What did you tell them to make them do the TSB?

Thanks

Wes
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you read the TSB is says all within specified build dates were to have this done. Below is a copy of the TSB.

Just went into the shop with a copy the TSB and told them what my transmission ser.# was and ask for an appointment for the fix. The SM said sure no problem, and all is well.

I told them Jeep trans had no slipping problem when cold, just the hard shifting and it seemed to be getting a little worse.

NUMBER: 21-016-05
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: September 01, 2005

THIS BULLETIN IS BEING PROVIDED IN ADVANCE. DO NOT ORDER PARTS OR
PERFORM ANY ACTIONS RELATED TO THIS BULLETIN UNTIL SEPTEMBER 09,
2005.
SUBJECT:
RFE Transmission - Delayed Engagement After An Extended Off Period
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves verifying the build date of the transmission, and if
necessary,
replacement of the transmission cooler return filter inside the
transmission.
MODELS:
2005 - 2006 (DR) Ram Truck
2005 - 2006 (HB) Durango
2005 - 2006 (KJ) Liberty / Cherokee
2005 - 2006 (ND) Dakota
2005 - 2006 (WK / WH) Grand Cherokee
2006 (XK) Commander
NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with the a 45RFE or a
545RFE
automatic transmission (sales code DG4 or DGQ respectively).
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may experience an initial delayed shift engagement following an
extended
off (not running) period of time, generally after being parked overnight.
The initial shift
engagement may feel like a delay or slip when a transmission gear (reverse
or drive) is
first selected after engine start.
The customer may also experience a MIL illumination. Investigation may
determine that
the MIL is due to one or more of the following Diagnostic Trouble Codes
(DTC's):
P0868 - Line Pressure Low. This DTC will be the most frequently occurring
DTC for
the delayed shift condition.
P0731 - Gear Ratio Error In 1st.
P0736 - Gear Ratio Error In Reverse.
P0841 - LR Pressure Switch Rationality.
NUMBER: 21-016-05
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: September 01, 2005
P0876 - UD Pressure Switch Rationality.
P0944 - Loss Of Hydraulic Pump Prime.
The condition may be caused by a suspect cooler return filter with a part
number of
04799662AB. The suspect cooler return filter may allow transmission fluid to
drain back
out of the torque converter when the engine is not running.
DIAGNOSIS:
1. Turn the ignition to the "OFF" position.
2. Raise the vehicle on a suitable lift.
Fig. 1 TRANS IDENTIFICATION NUMBER
1 - TRANSMISSION IDENTIFICATION (SERIAL AND PART) NUMBER - 20 DIGIT
3. Inspect for the transmission build date (Julian date) (Fig. 1). The
transmission build
date can be determined by inspection of the 20 digit transmission
identification number
(DDDYxxxxxPpartnumber). The transmission identification number is stamped on
the
left side (driver side) of the transmission oil pan flange. The first four
(4) digits of the
transmission identification number are the transmission build date, in
Julian date
format. An example of a transmission identification number would be :
101510492P52119684AA. The first three digits ( 101 ) of the identification
number
equal the day of the year, in this case 101 equals April 11. The fourth
digit ( 5 ) of the
identification number equals the calendar year, in this case 5 equals 2005.
So 1015
equals April 11, 2005.
4. Determine if the vehicle's transmission was built on or between one of
the two sets of
Julian date build ranges listed below:
a. Julian date 0425 (February 11, 2005) to Julian date 0455 (February 15,
2005). 0425
to 0455.
b. Julian date 1015 (April 11, 2005) to Julian date 2345 (August 22, 2005).
1015 to
2345.
21-016-05 -2-
5. If the vehicle has the above condition, and if the transmission Julian
build date is on or
between the range of dates listed above, perform the Repair Procedure.
PARTS REQUIRED:
NOTE: The correct cooler return filter will not be available until September
09, 2005.
Qty. Part No. Description
1 04799662 Filter, Cooler Return
4 05013457AA Fluid, Automatic Transmission, MS-9602
ATF+4, Quart
1 05010884AA Mopar ATF-RTV
NOTE: DO NOT use a replacement cooler return filter with a part number of
04799662AB. This filter is suspect of causing the above condition. The
filter
part number is stenciled on the side of the filter case.
SPECIAL TOOLS/EQUIPMENT REQUIRED:
8321 Oil Filter Wrench
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
Fig. 2 Transmission Filters - 4X4 Shown
1 - PRIMARY OIL FILTER
2 - COOLER RETURN FILTER
3 - COOLER RETURN FILTER BYPASS VALVE
4 - VALVE BODY
-3- 21-016-05
NOTE: All cooler return filters with the "AB" suffix (04799662AB) are
suspect. The
above condition may be corrected by replacing a suspect "AB" filter with a
new cooler return filter whose part number is 04799662 (with no suffix or
with
a suffix that is other than the "AB" level).
NOTE: A replacement 04799662 cooler return filter may come packaged with a
separate threaded adapter stud. The threaded adapter stud is used to attach
the cooler return filter to the transmission. Inspect the stud and note end
without threads. Install the stud end without the threads into the cooler
return filter and tighten the stud-to-filter connection to 18.6 Nm (165 in.
lbs.).
Once the threaded adapter stud has been installed to the cooler return
filter,
install the assembled cooler return filter to the transmission and tighten
the
filter to 14.1 Nm (125 in. lbs.)
Use the procedures outlined in TechCONNECT® ( Service Information Tab / 21 -
Transmission Transaxle / Automatic - 45RFE 545RFE / Fluid / Standard
Procedure / Fluid
and Filter Replacement) to replace the cooler return filter.
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
TIME ALLOWANCE:
Labor Operation
No:
Description Amount
21-55-02-90 Filter, Cooler Return - Replace 0.6 Hrs.
21-55-02-60 Optional Equipment: Skid Plate Equipped
(2005-2006 KJ / 2005 ND / 2005-2006 WK WH)
0.2 Hrs.
FAILURE CODE:
P8 New Part
Author:  RedJeepCRD [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your a wealth of knowledge.

Thank,

Wes
Author:  fiend [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
how do you get theese repaired?
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
fiend wrote:
how do you get theese repaired?
I'm not sure what you mean. I took it to the dealer and ask to have the service done, it is just basic transmission service, not rocket science.
Author:  grywlfbg [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  delay but no shudder
oldnavy,

Thanks for the post! I haven't had the shudder but I do notice the delayed shifting when it's cold. I assumed it was some kind of electronic delay/warm-up thing but the TSB talks about that as a symptom. I'll try to crawl under my KJ when I get home from S. Africa this week and see if my dates line up w/ those in the above.

Since this xmission is common to non-diesel DC cars it shouldn't be a problem going to the local dealer.
Author:  fiend [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean. I took it to the dealer and ask to have the service done, it is just basic transmission service, not rocket science.


ok what i meant was how do you know if it needs to be done. and you answered part of my question, i just go to the dealer.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Talk about timing! Two days ago experienced the delayed engagement symptom, started it up after sitting overnight, put it in reverse, and it took upwards of 5 seconds for the tranny to engage.

checked the serial number, sure enough, 1225, right in the middle of the second period.

You can also look on the sticker higher up on the tranny. they have a number that starts with "TITJ", and right after these letters is the same Julian date.
Author:  RedJeepCRD [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
OK so my transmission says "069511093P52119462A0"

So does that mean this is not a problem for me?

Wes
Author:  oldnavy [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
RedJeepCRD wrote:
OK so my transmission says "069511093P52119462A0"

So does that mean this is not a problem for me?

Wes
That's correct, you had a correct filter installed at the factory.

I would however have them to put some RTV sealer around the dipstick tube where it goes into the tranny to prevent water comtamination of the trans fluid. This is a known problem on this tranny and the 5spd MB tranny used in the LX series cars. It will mean we will have to keep a check on the RTV sealer until (if ever) D/C provides a long turm fix.
Author:  Guest [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
RedJeepCRD wrote:
OK so my transmission says "069511093P52119462A0"

So does that mean this is not a problem for me?

Wes
That's correct, you had a correct filter installed at the factory.

I would however have them to put some RTV sealer around the dipstick tube where it goes into the tranny to prevent water comtamination of the trans fluid. This is a known problem on this tranny and the 5spd MB tranny used in the LX series cars. It will mean we will have to keep a check on the RTV sealer until (if ever) D/C provides a long turm fix.


My transmission falls in the range (number starts with 1405) but I have no symptoms. Does this TSB simply mean the wrong filter MAY have been installed, but not ABSOLUTELY?
Author:  oldnavy [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
No. I had no symptoms either, other then shifting hard sometimes. It should be done to prevent more expensive failure later.

The key words on the TSB says "The customer may".

I suspect it will depend on how busy or customer friendly you dealer is where you take it for service.
Author:  Guest [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
No. I had no symptoms either, other then shifting hard sometimes. It should be done to prevent more expensive failure later.

The key words on the TSB says "The customer may".

I suspect it will depend on how busy or customer friendly you dealer is where you take it for service.


Well, I left it out of the garage over night and the air temperature outside was 16F. I jumped in this morning, started it up and immediately shifted into reverse - no slipping, just immediate engagement. Also, I have never had a hard shift. (I will call my Kokomo, IN dealer where I bought this on September 23 to see if the TSB was already done, or at least the earlier released TSB for the ECM flash to fix hard shifting).

I have not found a trust worthy dealer/service dept. in the Indianapolis, IN area yet and so I'm VERY hesitant to have this TSB checked out. Maybe someone in the Indy area can point me to an honest and skilled dealer service department?
Author:  oldnavy [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes it could have been done or you are just not having any symptons as yet, like I was. My tranny had no delay going into gear after sitting over night, but did have a mild hard shift or clunk on ocassions. This hard shift was not always present and was sporatic in occurance. If this tranny has the wrong filter it will eventually fail and be a major repair. The CRD has a rather simple service & repair senereo, all that is done is the pan is dropped, old filter screwed off and new filter screwed back in it's place, sealing surfaces cleanded and new RTV sealer applied and pan placed back up, then trans fluid added. The dipstick has both a cold and hot marks (holes) and is easy to refill.
Author:  Ricky5 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Looks like mine falls in the catagory, but I don't have the symtoms. I will just take it in anyways. I'm starting to think the CRD was a bad idea.

105511009P52119462A0
Author:  oldnavy [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ricky5 wrote:
Looks like mine falls in the catagory, but I don't have the symtoms. I will just take it in anyways. I'm starting to think the CRD was a bad idea.

105511009P52119462A0
You should see all the TSB's for the gassers, and it's not just Jeep or D/C, other mfg's have all the same problems. Pay attention to recalls on TV, they come from all mfg's.

Part of the problem is we want all the options, all the power and still be able to breath the exhust.
Author:  Ricky5 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
You should see all the TSB's for the gassers, and it's not just Jeep or D/C, other mfg's have all the same problems. Pay attention to recalls on TV, they come from all mfg's.

Part of the problem is we want all the options, all the power and still be able to breath the exhust.


Where can you access all the TSB's anyways?
Author:  Guest [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ricky5 wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
You should see all the TSB's for the gassers, and it's not just Jeep or D/C, other mfg's have all the same problems. Pay attention to recalls on TV, they come from all mfg's.

Part of the problem is we want all the options, all the power and still be able to breath the exhust.


Where can you access all the TSB's anyways?


Here is a shortcut you can play with:

http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Chrysler/index-issue.html

*** Read TSB 21-015-05 in detail ***

This is the TSB for older vehicles as well as new ones that may have received this "suspect" cooler return filter as part of a transmission service visit. It clearly states this problem is not detrimental to the transmission. I have spent several hours today calling independent transmission shops and describing what both of the TSB documents describe and they agree that as long as you let your vehicle idle for 30 seconds the torque converter will re-fill to it's required level. The "suspect" filter may have a faulty drain-back feature but it has no effect when you are driving since the transmission fluid is flowing and under pressure in the system as designed.

I suspect any hard shifting or clunking may be more related to water contamination or a reflashing of the ECM as some people have had done.

TSB 21-016-05 is not just for the CRD, but all 2005-2006 transmissions with model number 545RFE and 45RFE. This covers Ram Trucks, Durangos, Liberties, Cherokees, Dakotas, Grand Cherokees, and Commanders.

I called 5 local dealers here in Indy and NONE of them will perform the TSB until I leave my vehicle with them over night so they can start it themselves the next morning and diagnose the symptoms themselves. Of which on mine they will find none - yet.
Author:  Ricky5 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
alljeep wrote:
I have spent several hours today calling independent transmission shops and describing what both of the TSB documents describe and they agree that as long as you let your vehicle idle for 30 seconds the torque converter will re-fill to it's required level. The "suspect" filter may have a faulty drain-back feature but it has no effect when you are driving since the transmission fluid is flowing and under pressure in the system as designed.


I won't see any issues then if that's the case. I actually let mine sit for a minute or more before I take off. Being in cold weather I let it sit even longer in some cases.
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