65 mpg and we can't have it.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:37 am

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... ries_ssi_5

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:22 am

A long while back Ford after discontinuing their Escort diesel (I think it was the Escort) stated they would not sell diesels in the US again till they could make money doing it :oops:

So if they can't get $10K for the option like on a power stroke they will not offer them :roll:

I don't see much hope for big businesse in the US.

The majority of Americans are pretty stupid and are turned off by diesels. As an example, just look at the current leading (?) presidential candidate :roll:

Here's a VW we won't see at least for a while.
http://blog.wired.com:80/cars/2008/09/v ... killi.html

truckbouy2 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:05 am

Aren't our lawmakers just wonderful....
All the speeches, how they're wanting what's BEST for America....
What would be BEST for America, would be making Washington, DC a sewage treatment facility. The effluent is already there.
For a nation that spends countless amounts on education, we certainly don't show it in our, "Best and Brightest" who know what's BEST for ALL of the rest of us.
My my....65mpg all over the rest of the world......

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:53 am

Joe Romas wrote:

The majority of Americans are pretty stupid

Probably the most wrong thing posted here :roll:

Fulltimer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:16 am

It seems like if the American auto companies got together and offered Cummins or who ever a ton of $$$ to develop a high mileage & clean diesel motor for American cars, it would work. Everyone could have a diesel in their lineup. But, it just won't happen.

Terry

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:56 am

But the NA market doesn't want a small car that does 65mpg. We want a big car (SUV/truck/minivan etc) that does 65mpg. Until the mentality shifts from "what we desire" to "what we really need" small economical cars will never get a foothold.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:26 pm

How about a 4x4 SUV that can tow 5000lbs and get up to 30mpg on the highway.

Oh wait....we had that....and Chrysler stopped selling it here.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:38 pm

JL Rockies wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

The majority of Americans are pretty stupid

Probably the most wrong thing posted here :roll:

I would substitute the word gullible (due to high dollar advertising), or ignorant (again, thru no fault of their own). Majority of people are probably not even aware that such cars are available outside this country. I still run into people that don't even know that such a thing as our CRD was even made, and is still being made for other countries. Heck, until a couple years ago I didn't even know that many of the OEM's had offered diesel versions of several models during the 80's - they just didn't advertise them. I was flabbergasted when a friend at work picked up a used '87 Ford Ranger diesel a couple years back, and he told me it wasn't a Canadian import but had actually been sold new in this country.

If I'd known that back in '87, instead of buying a new Subaru wagon at the time, I would have jumped all over a diesel Ranger.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:56 pm

The secret is no accident.

Just visit VW's website and click on "Build" and try to find a diesel option.

It's barely mentioned on their website.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:44 pm

x2 on the "I didn't know they made a diesel Jeep" comment. I get that a LOT from people, and many of them work for Chrysler dealers!

Diesels were destroyed in this country by GM. Whether intentionally or through sheer incompetence, that Oldsmobile conversion ruined the public opinion of diesels permanently. The universal answer I hear when I tell people my car is a diesel is "Oh, wow, cool!" and then when I tell them that my SUV gets 30mpg... Their mouths open and they start drooling.

Too bad Chrysler didn't bother to MARKET this engine... Just like the rest of the car makers selling in the USA.

VW should be ashamed of their LACK of touting the TDI's performance or existence, and should be SLAPPED for not putting the 1.9l TDI into EVERY body shell it can fit in (Which is ALL of them) and severely BEATEN for bringing that V10 TDI monstrosity here, while ignoring it's I-5 root engine that powers the SAME SUV with the SAME tow rating in Europe.

But thats a discussion for another day.

I just watched the fluff piece on CNN talking about the Ford Diesel from this article... The only reason that they could cite that Ford will never sell it here? "There are different emissions laws in this country"

Ok, here's a proposal that will do WONDERS for the greenies, and GUARANTEE a large-scale reduction in our fossil fuel usage:

Roll back the EPA bullpoop regulations to 1998 (or whenever the last tier started) for any light-duty diesel engine installed into a passenger vehicle that gets an EPA tested MPG of 30 or higher.

Further: Mandate that all of these "feel good" flex-fuel vehicles that GM is selling for tax credits must ALSO get 30+mpg for the tax credit to apply. NO MORE CREDITS for anything that gets less than 30mpg.

And Finally: For ANY diesel engine powered vehicle that needs EPA MPG testing - The engine must have accumulated a minimum of 15,000 miles of operating time before testing, to allow for proper break-in and accurate test results. Also, accelerated approval of any current-in-sales model from the EU should also be implemented. Let's be real here - The EU has equivalent (if not better) safety regs, and the EPA BS is just that - BS to block a better system.

Of course, not one bit of this will ever happen. The oil industry owns our government, and anything that might actually REDUCE our dependence on this heroin will never be allowed to see the light of day.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:38 pm

truckbouy2 wrote:

Aren't our lawmakers just wonderful....
All the speeches, how they're wanting what's BEST for America....
What would be BEST for America, would be making Washington, DC a sewage treatment facility. The effluent is already there.
For a nation that spends countless amounts on education, we certainly don't show it in our, "Best and Brightest" who know what's BEST for ALL of the rest of us.
My my....65mpg all over the rest of the world......

If one were to believe all the stuff taught in the typical HR class on ethics, 95% of congress would be locked up at Marion, IL Federal Prison.

Lets start a class action law suite against the EPA. I am sure the D.C. Blue Plains Plant can handle all the influent.

wolcott · **Joined:** Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:16 pm **Posts:** 108

Besides engine problems, Ford has run into other regulatory problems in bringing the Fiesta to the US. European bumper standards are oriented towards protecting any bicyclists or pedestrians struck by the car, while the US bumper standards are oriented towards reducing car damage in the event of a low speed collision. As a result, Ford has had to put a lot of money and effort into re-engineering the Fiesta bumpers to meet US standards.

The basic problem for US auto manufacturers though, is work rules. From what I understand, producing an engine in the US at an American UAW plant takes about 30% more man hours than producing it at a foreign owned, non UAW plant. The UAW has never realized that if you pay high wages, you have to get high productivity from your work force. As the US makers have found out, paying high wages for a low productivity workforce is a recipe for bankruptcy.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:49 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Heck, until a couple years ago I didn't even know that many of the OEM's had offered diesel versions of several models during the 80's - they just didn't advertise them. I was flabbergasted when a friend at work picked up a used '87 Ford Ranger diesel a couple years back, and he told me it wasn't a Canadian import but had actually been sold new in this country.

They used a Mazada engine in the Ranger. You might also be supprised to learn Ford offered a BMW diesel in one of their big cars :lol:

Found it

1984 and 85 Lincoln Contential Mark VII. Here's the blurb.
The engine choices were a 5.0 L V8 and an ultra-rare (200-500 made) 2.4 L Straight-6 diesel. The diesel was a BMW design with a turbocharger. Rumors have it that a 5-speed manual transmission was bolted to at least 1 of these diesels. It was available on all trim levels until the engine was dropped after 1985.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:26 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

A long while back Ford after discontinuing their Escort diesel (I think it was the Escort) stated they would not sell diesels in the US again till they could make money doing it :oops:

So if they can't get $10K for the option like on a power stroke they will not offer them :roll:

I don't see much hope for big businesse in the US.

The majority of Americans are pretty stupid and are turned off by diesels. As an example, just look at the current leading (?) presidential candidate :roll:

Here's a VW we won't see at least for a while.
http://blog.wired.com:80/cars/2008/09/v ... killi.html

Ford bought the engines from Mazda as they do for the Rangers they sell over seas. Ford does have some cool diesel engines in Europe, but for the states all they do is make excuses and cry about emissions. My brother a fuel systems engineer at Ford has drunk the Bean Counter Kool Aid to keep his job in these trying times.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:44 pm

geordi wrote:

x2 on the "I didn't know they made a diesel Jeep" comment. I get that a LOT from people, and many of them work for Chrysler dealers!

Diesels were destroyed in this country by GM. Whether intentionally or through sheer incompetence, that Oldsmobile conversion ruined the public opinion of diesels permanently. The universal answer I hear when I tell people my car is a diesel is "Oh, wow, cool!" and then when I tell them that my SUV gets 30mpg... Their mouths open and they start drooling.

Too bad Chrysler didn't bother to MARKET this engine... Just like the rest of the car makers selling in the USA.

VW should be ashamed of their LACK of touting the TDI's performance or existence, and should be SLAPPED for not putting the 1.9l TDI into EVERY body shell it can fit in (Which is ALL of them) and severely BEATEN for bringing that V10 TDI monstrosity here, while ignoring it's I-5 root engine that powers the SAME SUV with the SAME tow rating in Europe.

But thats a discussion for another day.

I just watched the fluff piece on CNN talking about the Ford Diesel from this article... The only reason that they could cite that Ford will never sell it here? "There are different emissions laws in this country"

Ok, here's a proposal that will do WONDERS for the greenies, and GUARANTEE a large-scale reduction in our fossil fuel usage:

Roll back the EPA bullpoop regulations to 1998 (or whenever the last tier started) for any light-duty diesel engine installed into a passenger vehicle that gets an EPA tested MPG of 30 or higher.

Further: Mandate that all of these "feel good" flex-fuel vehicles that GM is selling for tax credits must ALSO get 30+mpg for the tax credit to apply. NO MORE CREDITS for anything that gets less than 30mpg.

And Finally: For ANY diesel engine powered vehicle that needs EPA MPG testing - The engine must have accumulated a minimum of 15,000 miles of operating time before testing, to allow for proper break-in and accurate test results. Also, accelerated approval of any current-in-sales model from the EU should also be implemented. Let's be real here - The EU has equivalent (if not better) safety regs, and the EPA BS is just that - BS to block a better system.

Of course, not one bit of this will ever happen. The oil industry owns our government, and anything that might actually REDUCE our dependence on this heroin will never be allowed to see the light of day.

I heard that the CLOWN who stole this line from GW's DAD has a TelePrompter on the headboard of his bed that plays his wife's name preceded by "I love you" , that way he does not get it wrong :!:

Some one besides the EPA, Burned out Lawyers, and Dead Tree Huggers who fly around on private jets need to uncover the truth about Nitrous Oxide ( The Diesel Emissions Killer that Europe blows off) and put it into perspective. Conditions where Nitrous Oxide can turn into Smog are limited to very few locations and only under the right conditions at a high ambient temperature. Urea and the Diesel EGR is a B.S. way to control a Boogie Man gas that is over rated on environmental impact.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:07 pm

What a great thread start! And yes, I think it’s ridiculous that I have to go to extreme measures to have someone strip down a diesel in Europe and have the engine and all it’s counterparts shipped to the USA just for the simple fact that I want a more powerful, efficient, and longer lasting engine that can run off biodiesel. I’m addicted to the worlds most powerful and efficient internal combustion engine in which air is compressed so much that the temperature far exceeds the ignition temperature of the fuel. This amazing process happens without a spark. And that fact that it is a clean burning, long lasting engine that can run biodiesel is pretty amazing. Thank goodness I live in America (the land of the free) and there are major loopholes in the laws. Sometimes you just have to beat the system to get what you want.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:17 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

Some one besides the EPA, Burned out Lawyers, and Dead Tree Huggers who fly around on private jets need to uncover the truth about Nitrous Oxide ( The Diesel Emissions Killer that Europe blows off) and put it into perspective. Conditions where Nitrous Oxide can turn into Smog are limited to very few locations and only under the right conditions at a high ambient temperature. Urea and the Diesel EGR is a B.S. way to control a Boogie Man gas that is over rated on environmental impact.

Thank you for bringing the truth to the table. :wink:

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

In the greatest American tradition, we whine about a problem that doesn't exist because some PR schmuck decided they wanted us to hyperventilate about issue X so we'd ignore issue Y.

Want a fuel efficient diesel that is affordable? Go down to your local VW dealer and order a 2009 Jetta TDI. Volkswagen has been hiding them? You must have missed the 50 state "Dieselution" road trip they did with the things all this summer, complete with rock concerts and press conferences. They held one in downtown Portland, OR just a month or two ago that drew a few thousand people. We have big waiting lists at the VW dealers here for the TDI wagon. They can't build enough of the things to meet demand.

http://jalopnik.com/396501/2009-jetta-t ... he-statues

It's fun to bash the evil bureaucrats who won't let us have our diesels and want to make our daughters marry muslims, but its a little like hyperventilating because your mother won't let you have a pony.

The reality is the technology to make diesels meet US clean air regs exists. It ain't rocket science. VW and Mercedes are doing it, without lots of whining and temper tantrums. You can go buy a brand new one today.

US automakers chose not to make the technology investments. Its like they are intentionally trying to fail. And instead of putting the blame where it belongs (the corporate executives who were so concerned about maximizing shareholder profit for the next couple quarters that they ignored the long-term trends with oil prices), we buy the argument that it is the fault of those faceless, evil bureaucrats who all make a gajillion dollars and fly around with private rocket packs while eating brie and smoking Cuban cigars. And guess who is going to get to fund the bailout of the Big 3 that is coming in just a year or two? That's right, the American tax payer.

But hey, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Easier to repeat the talking point about how stupid it is to fully inflate your tires to save $$ at the gas pump than to actually deal with the real problem. Drill baby, drill! Exxon's CEO needs a new pair of yachts!

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:10 pm

assets don't freeze up.

Threeweight wrote:

In the greatest American tradition, we whine about a problem that doesn't exist because some PR schmuck decided they wanted us to hyperventilate about issue X so we'd ignore issue Y.

Want a fuel efficient diesel that is affordable? Go down to your local VW dealer and order a 2009 Jetta TDI. Volkswagen has been hiding them? You must have missed the 50 state "Dieselution" road trip they did with the things all this summer, complete with rock concerts and press conferences. They held one in downtown Portland, OR just a month or two ago that drew a few thousand people. We have big waiting lists at the VW dealers here for the TDI wagon. They can't build enough of the things to meet demand.

http://jalopnik.com/396501/2009-jetta-t ... he-statues

It's fun to bash the evil bureaucrats who won't let us have our diesels and want to make our daughters marry muslims, but its a little like hyperventilating because your mother won't let you have a pony.

The reality is the technology to make diesels meet US clean air regs exists. It ain't rocket science. VW and Mercedes are doing it, without lots of whining and temper tantrums. You can go buy a brand new one today.

US automakers chose not to make the technology investments. Its like they are intentionally trying to fail. And instead of putting the blame where it belongs (the corporate executives who were so concerned about maximizing shareholder profit for the next couple quarters that they ignored the long-term trends with oil prices), we buy the argument that it is the fault of those faceless, evil bureaucrats who all make a gajillion dollars and fly around with private rocket packs while eating brie and smoking Cuban cigars. And guess who is going to get to fund the bailout of the Big 3 that is coming in just a year or two? That's right, the American tax payer.

But hey, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Easier to repeat the talking point about how stupid it is to fully inflate your tires to save $$ at the gas pump than to actually deal with the real problem. Drill baby, drill! Exxon's CEO needs a new pair of yachts!

Mercedes and VW are not going to share their technology with Ford, Chrysler, or GM. They won't share it with the Asian companies either. Why should they, it cost them money.
Due to that, and tiny little details like PATENTS (Communist China has no such thing as Patents, they just steel technology), the cheap way to fix NOX is to inject UREA into the exhaust stream, why not it is cheap. So was GAS and DIESEL FUEL until a few corrupt crack pots dictators wanted more money and the market drove it up. I can just see the UREA market going through the roof and people discussing how to make UREA out of Human and Animal Urine (good luck training your cats and dogs) and the best way to mount the toilet ( or litter less liter box) on top of the wind/solar powered reactor they bought on eBay to make their own UREA. Oh ya the big dilemma, will the various auto companies void a warranty for home made UREA? Will the smugglers give up drug trafficking and sell black market UREA that has not have the NEW ENVIRONMENTAL TAX used to help feed the homeless and provide free needles?
I look forward to when the Alpha Type Big Shot has the UREA freeze up (yep it does that in cold weather) on his/her high-line car sitting in the airport parking lot and the dealer charges him/ her $1000.00 to thaw out the tank :lol:

NOX is a BOOGIE pollutant like CO2 is. Some crack pot professor found a few places in the country where NOX can be a problem under very rare conditions and form smog. Of course it makes no difference that smog formed long before the internal combustion engine was ever invented or any substantial population lived in the areas. Why did populations move into these areas where smog can form, like LA, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Salt Lake, New York city, or Chicago? Flat land is cheaper to develop and run the needed infrastructure. Last Smog alert in Chicago area they asked us to hold off and not mow our dead grass that died from the drought we had.

We are throwing money down a rat hole to meet the regulations that go after a BOOGIE MAN pollutant when our engineers around the world should be finding ways to get more out of every drop of fuel, develop new sources of fuel, and new power sources. We have some cars that exhaust cleaner air than what goes into the intake, how much better do we have to make it for the WACK JOBS? Instead engineers with very few exceptions, spend more high quality time with their spouses than they spend on engineering :!:

Members who are Engineers have agreed with me about the time they get to do real Engineering.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:19 pm

Warp.

There's a exception to every rule :lol:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=223301
Here's the exception :wink:

Volkswagen’s most advanced diesel technology to date, the new Clean-diesel TDI is a turbocharged, 16-valve inline four that uses a common-rail fuel injection system and a state-of-the-art emissions system combining a diesel particulate filter, an exhaust regenerative system, as well as a NOx storage catalyst..... new catalytic process is sophisticated enough to do the job on its own on the smaller engine, but that urea injection will be required on the larger V6 TDI Touareg.

So most if not all the VW TDI's we'll see in the US won't need urea added :lol:

65 mpg and we can't have it.

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