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Rebuild it or part it out?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43869		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Rebuild it or part it out?
Not the whole CRD, thankfully.

I'm just asking about the engine. My CRD will be done sometime today, and I will be getting a huge collection of parts in return with it. I've had the chance to inspect the original block, and the #1 cylinder sleeve and piston is completely gone. The cylinder doesn't appear gouged or damaged in any way, the previous contents are just gone. I probably have them in a box from what I collected from the road surface after they left through the oil pan. Here is my dilemma however:

I would like to know the potential problems of trying to use this engine as a swap into my 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee, with another 545RFE transmission. I have both computers from the donor CRD, but how would the engine talk to the dashboard and keyswitch? That is the main problem I'm trying to figure out right now. Is it worth the hassle? What about the gear selector connection? I want to retain the existing 4WD system in the Grand Cherokee.

As far as rebuilding the engine, it will need the cylinder head rebuilt. Probably with all new valves and rockers, this is the head from the replacement engine. The timing belt tensioner on the replacement engine pulled out of the aluminum front cover - Apparently VM decided to use a HELICOIL on ALL of these (my original front cover which nobody has ever touched had one) and it failed. That (to me) is a pretty big design flaw. But when the tensioner pulled out, the timing jumped and the valves were impacted.

The second design problem that was discovered was that the camshafts are keyed for a woodruff key... But the pulley gears ARE NOT keyed. WTF? The ONLY thing holding the camshaft timing together is the single bolt that holds the pulley onto the camshaft? That doesn't seem that smart either.

But rebuilding the block should only involve replacing the sleeve and piston, and then putting everything back onto the engine.

It is the electronics that concerns me right now. Thoughts?
Author:  linewarbr [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Check out Sir Sam's install of a 2.5 CRD into an old Comanche pickup. I think he has already run across a lot of what concerns you. The web address where he details the conversion is in his sig line.

I am very interested, however, in what exactly happened to your Jeep. Is there a single thread that details all of it?
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not yet, but there will be. The title will be something like "CRD Trail of Pain" based on everything that has happened since February.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  OEM helicoil apps
I would look fore something else to blame other than a Helicoil. Many manufactures use helicols as a way to get a more firm grip on the base metal they are screwing into. IH used them in the block for the old BD144 & BD154 Diesel engines they produced for years.

If the rod and crank are in good shape, go for the piston sleeve replacement. If the rod is wounded, replace it.

Every manufacturer recommends against repairing a cylinder head (they want the money) and there are many good repair shops that can properly fix them. The one fact in this discussion that I can bring to light is that there are a lot of cars and trucks going down the road with welded up heads that have been repaired and when I was in the repair business, I did more than my share including diesels. I would get an opinion from those who have had heads repaired and of course ask the shop you want to do the work if your cylinder head is repairable, then decide. I trust people who get their hands dirty over parts sales people.
When it comes to key-less timing belt pulleys, VW has done it for years with no problem.

When it comes to repair or rebuilding anything, it is only limited by the cost of doing it and the ability of the person doing it. Would I weld up a pile of chunks into a new part, no, but a lot of components can be properly reworked, if it is cost effective to do so.

Good luck
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the tips Warp. As far as I can see right now, the head looks fine, I don't think it will require much more than replacement of the moving parts, but I will be getting it inspected by the shop that reworked the head that came with my original engine. That original head would have only had damage on the #1 cylinder.

As for the #1 cylinder... The rod is also gone. The only thing left in that hole is the bottom of the rod where it is bolted around the crankshaft. I'm guessing that the rod is just fine, b/c the rod itself crumbled with the piston when it all came apart.

I plan on getting pictures of everything for the big thread, once I have everything back. I left my camera in Savannah, oops. At the moment tho, the latest is that the car is giving "problems" to the mechanic again, so it may not be ready for this weekend. Which means at least another 2 weeks without it, since I have a film starting on Monday.

Blarg.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Ask you shop if...
geordi wrote:
Thanks for the tips Warp. As far as I can see right now, the head looks fine, I don't think it will require much more than replacement of the moving parts, but I will be getting it inspected by the shop that reworked the head that came with my original engine. That original head would have only had damage on the #1 cylinder.

As for the #1 cylinder... The rod is also gone. The only thing left in that hole is the bottom of the rod where it is bolted around the crankshaft. I'm guessing that the rod is just fine, b/c the rod itself crumbled with the piston when it all came apart.

I plan on getting pictures of everything for the big thread, once I have everything back. I left my camera in Savannah, oops. At the moment tho, the latest is that the car is giving "problems" to the mechanic again, so it may not be ready for this weekend. Which means at least another 2 weeks without it, since I have a film starting on Monday.

Blarg.


...they have a way to check your crank with out pulling it. I have been around Die Check, magniflux, Xray, and even the ring test where you strike one of the crank throws (not the journal) with a hammer and see if it goes thud instead of the desired bell ring. There may be a new trick they have to give you some Peace of mind.
Just a thought.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuild it or part it out?
geordi wrote:
I would like to know the potential problems of trying to use this engine as a swap into my 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee, with another 545RFE transmission. I have both computers from the donor CRD, but how would the engine talk to the dashboard and keyswitch? That is the main problem I'm trying to figure out right now. Is it worth the hassle? What about the gear selector connection? I want to retain the existing 4WD system in the Grand Cherokee.


The motor mounts for a V8 ZJ are more easily adaptable to a VM engine.

It looks like you would have better clearance over the axle on a ZJ than an XJ.

You can retain your existing transfer case, it will boltup to a 545rfe, 68rfe, NSG370, AX15, NV3550, 42re.......................

You will likely need to reposition the transfer case, meaning new linkages for Xfer case shifter and new driveshafts front and rear.

You would need to adapt a gauge cluster from a WJ for your factory gauges to work. You would need a BCM from a KJ for your speedo to work. The ZJ overhead console would need to be replaced with a KJ computer and display.

Wiring is easy because at least you know what you need to do, its fitting it in thats the hard part.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Sam, you wouldn't happen to have a complete PDF service manual for the 97 ZJ, would you? It would be nice to be able to compare the electrical systems on paper... Everything is just electrical signals, and I'm wondering if - If I can find the signal wires into the engine for the existing gauge cluster, if they can just be adapted into the harness for the CRD.

The speed signal would come from the transfer case or the back end of the transmission, I already know where that wire is on my ZJ, I had to pull it temporarily on another ZJ. Long story.

So then it would just be the tach, the water temp is easy, and the oil pressure is easy. Battery and fuel shouldn't change at all either. So really... It is just the speed and tach signals that I would need to trace. Hmm, this might be possible after all.

I understand about the EVIC system, but really... I haven't trusted the MPG reading for YEARS anyway, since the EVIC says that it is getting 18+ on the highway... And I calculate no more than 14-15. This is one of the older ones that didn't have TPMS (thankfully) and only does trip time, MPG avg, mpg instant (if either could be trusted) compass and temp. I use the compass and temp more than anything else.

The last bit of tech is the idiot system below the AC controls. I really wouldn't cry much if I lost that, it whines ever time the stupid washer fluid gets low! :lol:

What else does the BCM control? I kinda like the rest of the power goodies in the ZJ, and for the moment... They all work. I even have a check-engine light to wire in if I have to, but what about the OBD plug? Is that routed to the ECM, or the BCM?

Do you know where the tach signal could be found on the CRD's harness? What about a start signal? Is it just as simple as a power signal to the ECM from the key, and then a manually-controlled solenoid to the starter?

I know that the diesel should be a "air plus fuel plus spin = fire" system... But the tech around it is what makes the fun. This might actually be possible...
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:50 am ]
Post subject: 
On a KJ, the speedo signal comes from the ABS module. This is transmitted across the J1850 bus to the cluster. The ECU receives it via the gateway module which converts J1850 messages into CAN messages.

For the tachometer, the opposite happens: ECU broadcasts it on CAN bus, gateway converts it to J1850, all other modules receive it.

For the starting system, there is a wire from the key switch that goes to a pin on the ECU and to the high side of the relay coil, with the ECU controlling the low side. That part is easy.

You will also have to have the matching immobilizer from the KJ that the ECU comes out of so that the vehicle will start.

The system that SirSam is working on is the older engine/ECU hardware combination so some of the issues are different, but even he will have the immobilizer issue to deal with.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Hmm. I thought the immobilizer was tied into the BCM, since that was what the dealer wanted to replace when they couldn't figure out why my remote starter wouldn't work.

And getting the specific key to work with the ECM I have might be a problem - I can't get ANY more info from Mopar, their new policy is to tell the customer to bugger off when asked for a VIP report on a vin. All I have is the donor engine and the 2 CPUs. I'm trying to avoid adding the third CPU if at all possible. I didn't think the 97's used a BCM anyway.

But even if they did, what about bringing the signals into the cluster directly? Bus or no bus, the 90 wires of the ECM are all getting analog info from somewhere... And there is a matching wire hairball behind the dash of the 97.

Hence why I need a really good wiring diagram for the 97. Trying to make this all talk in the computer realm is going to be worse of a nightmare than I can possibly imagine. I'm a former sysadmin, so I can imagine quite a bit that way. :lol:
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
The wiring diagrams are all on my website.

All the data regarding your gauges is all transmitted on the PCI bus. Just a single wire carries the tach, speed, water temp, oil pressure, voltage, fuel level etc. The gauge cluster makes use of that single for that purpose.

the ZJ uses the CCD bus, the WJ uses the PCI bus, the KJ uses the PCI bus.

To retain any of your stock gauge functionality you would need to try and adapt a gauge cluster from a different vehicle, I think a WJ cluster is your most likely subject to modify to fit. ( I am doing something similar in my swap, since the XJ uses the CCD bus I need a PCI cluster, the newer TJs use a PCI cluster, and happen to be an exact bolt in.

The speedo pickup from the output of the transfer case is wired directly to the BCM. This way you can program different tire sizes into the BCM. The BCM then broadcasts this information on the PCI bus, which both your ECU and your gauge cluster receive.

In this way if you wanted to with just 3 wires(12V, ground, PCI bus) you could locate a EVIC anywhere in the KJ, for that matter you could locate a second gauge cluster anywhere in the KJ. I don't know why you would, but you could.


Your 97 used a BCM on the CCD bus. Not that it will do you much good, the shell of your ZJ(with its keyless entry radio remote controls etc) will remain active on the ZJ bcm on the CCD bus. You will then have a separate KJ BCM on a PCI bus to do the things that it needs to do. You will likely end up with two OBDII ports one for the original ZJ functions that you happen to still need(keyless entry programming mostly), and the other for all the KJ OBDII needs(programming tire sizes for correct speedo, reflashing the correct vin into the ECU/BCM, SKIM programming, etc etc etc)
Author:  geordi [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, there has been an update.

They got the engine running again finally after replacing the head and the front cover from when the timing tensioner pulled out and wrecked the top end. Not sure why it took almost a full week to get it to start, but obviously some step was missed. I wasn't there long enough to look at everything before I had to come back to Savannah for a film shoot. I should be jumping up and down happy, but they are taking the transmission out again tomorrow.

Why? Because as soon as they got the engine running, it started making really loud bad sounds again. Shut it down, pulled the front cover off again and checked the timing, all looks good. Raise it back up and poke around the back of the block to check the timing mark at the back... And the flywheel is freewheeling.

So now the question is, did the crankshaft just decide to snap on this thing? How could that have been caused, when it has already been running twice, and driven on a short test drive before the timing jumped?

I think I want them to buy a bullet and just shoot the thing. At this point... Will I ever see my car again?
Author:  gmctd [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Could indicate that noone tho't to check that the flexplate bolts were installed and torqued - or that the TC bolts were not installed and torqued - difficult to imagine the crank pto flange separating off the rear main journal, or worse............
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