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Off-Road Diesel?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46053		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  abhester3 [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Off-Road Diesel?
Down here in the South we sometimes have big storms called hurricanes, you may have heard tell of such things. Some of you folks Downeast might be getting a taste soon, board-up, buy lots of beer plus generator fuel, tune up the chainsaw and good luck...

Anyway, we are entering the worst of the season and sometimes fuel is in short supply after a hurricane. I've run off-road diesel in my Dodge Cummins to get either in or out of a storm-hit area and, post Katrina, just to get around! What havoc will this play with my CRD? Will the stealer know? (8 yr, 80k warranty) Any mods suggested should this become a necessity? Just park the CRD and run the Dodge?

Thanks for your time and this great website!
Author:  Diggerfreek [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Shouldn't be a problem.... If any thing, it will like the extra sulfur content in the fuel. Just don't run 2 stroke oil with it.
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
if you run the off-road diesel (500ppm sulfur usually) for an extended period of time, you might experience what is called sulfur poisoning of the catalyst where its ability to convert hydrocarbon is diminished. You'll know if this is the case if you're exhaust is noticeably stinkier than normal and/or you see slight puffs of blue or white while the engine is cold. A sustained drive with high exhaust temps (pulling a trailer, etc) will be sufficient to de-sulfate the catalyst and it'll be back to normal. However, doing this multiple times over a long period of time (tens of thousands of miles) will eventually decrease the efficieny of the catalyst. This, however, wouldn't be an issue unless you drive on off-road high sulfur diesel exclusively.
Author:  dgeist [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Just had a conversation about this at my local fuel depot
I get B20 from a local commercial fuel depot that is also open to retail smaller pump sales (like myself). They sell the gammut of fuels, unleaded, LSD, ULSD, off-highway, B100, B20, JP8, etc. From what the guy at the desk told me, the most plentiful in supply from refineries is the ULSD, so their off-highway is identical to normal ULSD except for the red dye and the tax (and is labeled as such on the front of the pump).

Obviously, every place has the potential to vary little, but I can't imagine there's all that much variance. It's probably all LSD or ULSD, both of which have been in the normal feedstock for the CRDs of most of the members on this board for years. There was a suspicion that the older LSD supplies let to premature EGR failure, but I don't know the chemistry behind it, so I'll just leave it at heresay.

In the Katrina case, I was lucky enough to be driving around with national guard escorts and the logo of the cable company on the truck. It's amazing how accomodating cops and other first-responders are to you if you're helping get the utilities back up. The tricky part was getting TO the area from Atlanta. My first tank ran dry near Tuscaloosa and all the darned 'Bama fans still made the trip for the home football game that weekend. Needless to say, no station in a 20 mile radius had any fuel left. Thank goodness for the Blitz cans I had filled up in the back.

Dan
Author:  abhester3 [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well it's good news that off-road is much the same as on road except the dye and no road tax, I'd thought it was still higher sulpher for older diesel reliability... Maybe the lower sulpher in the older machines isn't the issue it was predicted to be, like the dawn of unleaded gas for valve seats. Our older tractors, dozers, etc haven't suffered any unusual IP or injector failures so maybe all is well...
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Fewer placed sell LSD every day
I travel a lot and only find LSD at larger truck stops where they can sell enough to make it worth having two sets of tanks.
Either way the off road has the red dye, get caught with it and your in deep crap.
Most of the contractors I work with won't put it in their construction equipment unless the local supplier comes out with a truck and fills up the equipment. They don't even want a tank of LSD on site for fear some one some in a truck.
Stationary Generators with their own tanks tend to use it, but every one I see anymore has a warning sign on the wall or tank.
Even the one Generator I saw with a High Sulfur Diesel Warning Sign, had LSD in the tank, the supplier would not sell it any more.
Author:  dgeist [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
abhester3 wrote:
Well it's good news that off-road is much the same as on road except the dye and no road tax, I'd thought it was still higher sulpher for older diesel reliability... Maybe the lower sulpher in the older machines isn't the issue it was predicted to be, like the dawn of unleaded gas for valve seats. Our older tractors, dozers, etc haven't suffered any unusual IP or injector failures so maybe all is well...


I didn't mean to mislead. From what I can tell, off-highway can be either LSD or ULSD (for compatibility and/or supply reasons). The place I buy from happens to be ULSD. I'm not in the industry, just reporting what I've seen and asked about firsthand.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer placed sell LSD every day
warp2diesel wrote:
Either way the off road has the red dye, get caught with it and your in deep crap.


After Katrina and some other hurricanes dyed diesel was allowed to be used on road, by anyone. Obviously this won't always happen, but its a valid question about running off road diesel as it can legally be done.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I was in Florida after Katrina happened, and we were LEGALLY allowed to run red, b/c that was all that was available. I know that for the local suppliers I've talked to about the generators I rent out, the red is exactly the same as the ULSD on-road... Except the color and the price.

But for the people who think the price difference is just the tax... HA! Last summer when GWB's big oil buddies were having their last run at draining the US Treasury into their pockets, ULSD was running 3.95 here in Savannah... While 5 feet away, the red was worth 2.95.

Hmm. Now I'm not a math wiz, and I don't play one on TV either... But something is decidedly fishy about that, when 6 months later at the same supplier... ULSD was 2.50 and red was 2.05

Since the Federal taxes on diesel are higher than gas (jack-holes!) but it still is about 40 cents per gallon around here, ALL THE TIME... Something funny was going on - The price-gouging that Cheney couldn't find. Since the crap is exactly the same there, there is ZERO reason for that difference other than the up-stream supplier at the fuel terminal (Owned by Marathon IIRC) screwing EVERYONE. The price spread should ALWAYS be exactly the tax difference. Nothing more.

But there wasn't any price fixing happening. Same for in Florida, where Flying J and several other retailers are being fined and sued by the state for jumping prices over $1.98 OVERNIGHT (literally) with the mere THREAT of a storm MAYBE entering the Gulf. The storm didn't happen, but their fuel price spike did! And even now, the named retailers in Ft Pierce are STILL 15-20 cents higher than everyone else... Except diesel. That is 40 cents higher.

Nice of them. :!: :x
Author:  oddball [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fewer placed sell LSD every day
warp2diesel wrote:
I travel a lot and only find LSD at larger truck stops where they can sell enough to make it worth having two sets of tanks.
Either way the off road has the red dye, get caught with it and your in deep crap.
Most of the contractors I work with won't put it in their construction equipment unless the local supplier comes out with a truck and fills up the equipment. They don't even want a tank of LSD on site for fear some one some in a truck.
Stationary Generators with their own tanks tend to use it, but every one I see anymore has a warning sign on the wall or tank.
Even the one Generator I saw with a High Sulfur Diesel Warning Sign, had LSD in the tank, the supplier would not sell it any more.

Exactly. Except "deep crap" might be a understatement.
Author:  abhester3 [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject: 
I think off-road is more available in rural areas and big truck stops, the contractors Warp2Diesel speaks of probably don't have a choice in fuels. I realize the law enforcement issues involved in not paying road taxes, in fact some states have active enforcement with roadblocks (!) to check diesel tanks, Alabama for instance...

But this issue is real, serious fuel shortages are just a hurricane on the Gulf Coast away. If buying red fuel out of a reefer or farm tank is your only way to move then that's what you do!

It's the catalyst I was primarily concerned about but warranty too (stealer looking for an excuse to deny a repair), I'll call some local fuel distributors as ask what the off-road story is, LSD, ULSD, etc.?
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Just wondering......How would they check the color of the fuel in the CRD? The input to the tank has the flip-over shut off valve and there is NO way you are going to stick a small hose in there.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Turbo Tim wrote:
Just wondering......How would they check the color of the fuel in the CRD? The input to the tank has the flip-over shut off valve and there is NO way you are going to stick a small hose in there.


They can take a fuel sample at the engine. The most easy way is at the primer pump and/or bleeder valve. BUSTED!!!
Author:  Diggerfreek [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
True, how ever the chances of one of your guys liberty's being checked is 1 and a million....
Author:  oddball [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Then again, if you're in a serious accident, it might be detected?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
oddball wrote:
Then again, if you're in a serious accident, it might be detected?


Ya I'm pretty sure the first responders check the fuel that spilled out to see if it was dyed diesel or not.
Author:  oddball [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Probably not. But if you're in a accident for example verses a big truck, the DOT will know especially if there is a fuel leak.

Bottom line - if you ever get caught with this stuff on the highway, your A** will hurt.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sir Sam wrote:
oddball wrote:
Then again, if you're in a serious accident, it might be detected?


Ya I'm pretty sure the first responders check the fuel that spilled out to see if it was dyed diesel or not.


It's blood that they are looking for, not red diesel.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
nursecosmo wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
oddball wrote:
Then again, if you're in a serious accident, it might be detected?


Ya I'm pretty sure the first responders check the fuel that spilled out to see if it was dyed diesel or not.


It's blood that they are looking for, not red diesel.


Yeah, confuse them and tell them it's blood. Heck we have diesel in our blood, even sweat some diesel. :lol:
Author:  geordi [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
nursecosmo wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
oddball wrote:
Then again, if you're in a serious accident, it might be detected?


Ya I'm pretty sure the first responders check the fuel that spilled out to see if it was dyed diesel or not.


It's blood that they are looking for, not red diesel.


Yeah, confuse them and tell them it's blood. Heck we have diesel in our blood, even sweat some diesel. :lol:


So THAT is why I was smelling it after working on the CRD in this 95 degree heat and humidity... I thought it was something else entirely. Thanks for clearing that up! :lol:
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