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Would you try to tow this with your CRD?
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Author:  durangotang [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Would you try to tow this with your CRD?
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I need to get these two Jeeps 500 miles back home :lol: Across several big passes in CO :roll:

They are on a 16ft trailer with brakes and everything and (last I checked) a willys weighs about <3000lbs. I'm thinking I should probably seperate them and tow individually. What you think?
Author:  linewarbr [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:54 am ]
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Got a trans cooler and an EGT gauge?
Author:  durangotang [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:31 am ]
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Nope :lol:
Author:  Joe Romas [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:46 am ]
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No for two reasons. One is your over the limit of the CRD and two it looks like there would be too little tongue weight on the trailer and that would cause the tail to wag the dog big time. Not to mention up and down steep passes would be a real adventure :wink:
Author:  RJM [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your crd might be the third jeep on the trailer. Be safe and rent a truck with the proper towing capacity.
Author:  dgeist [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Would you try to tow this with your CRD?
durangotang wrote:
Image

I need to get these two Jeeps 500 miles back home :lol: Across several big passes in CO :roll:

They are on a 16ft trailer with brakes and everything and (last I checked) a willys weighs about <3000lbs. I'm thinking I should probably seperate them and tow individually. What you think?


I might pull the trailer with one jeep (perhaps with no engine)....on level highway....with no turns..... in light traffic.....across town :)
Author:  RTStabler51 [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:13 pm ]
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I wouldn't tow both of them, especially since you are going to be going in the mountains. My little turd struggles through the mountains even in 3rd.
Author:  flman [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:23 pm ]
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How about a tow bar, or 2 tow bars in tandem :P
Author:  nursecosmo [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:32 pm ]
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Aren't the E-spec CRDs rated for 7000#s? If they can tow that much weight through the Alps with the same engine and tranny, I think that they can handle our little 8 degree passes in the states.
Author:  hiram [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  tow
dude,, don't do it... :roll:
Author:  kdlewis1975 [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:01 pm ]
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Back when I bought my Jeep, the diesel tech at the dealership was giving a rundown of the capabilities. His words were "the drivetrain can handle well over 5000 lbs, but don't pull any more than that." The tow rating probably isn't the result of the drivetrain, but because of the unibody construction. We just don't have a heavy duty steel frame to carry the weight. If you look, the hitch pretty much bolts to the underside of the cargo area. Using a weight equalizing hitch may allow "violating" that weight limit somewhat, but one probably shouldn't go too much over it. I think that big honkin' trailer Danoid pulls with his CRD is 5400 lbs (I love his picture by the way, the difference in size makes it ridiculously amusing). Aside from dealing with the dynamics of having a vehicle a bit smaller and lighter than the load behind it, the integrity of the chassis over time may be a bigger concern. If it were me, I don't think I'd have a problem pulling a single one on the trailer, but I don't think I'd go for the two-fer.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:54 pm ]
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I'm the crazy towing fool, and I wouldn't do that one. As a tandem-tow, I MIGHT do it... But like I said: I'm the crazy towing fool.

The biggest problem isn't the weight of the Willys, it is the weight of that trailer empty. Those open car haulers are good for AT LEAST a full 2000 by themselves. I would be surprised if the willys weighed in at more than 2500, they were pretty small and sparse on the running gear, so even all-steel they should be light... Unlike anything Chrysler has made in the last 15 years.

But at 2k for the trailer, maybe 2500... 2500 each to be safe with the willys, you are at 7500.

Now you are also asking your little 4-in-a-row to tug itself, at 4500 lbs... and you hit the big 12,000 lbs GCW from everything. On a 4-cylinder? I wouldn't. Our CRDs are the same exact truck as what is the "euro spec" with the 7000 TRAILER rating, so that puts us at 11,500 for a GCW. And I've done exactly that with that big 6840 lb generator I pulled, and the CRD was happy as a clam at 19mpg. Pushing to the Euro spec is a normal thing, b/c you are mentally adjusting from the idiot-lawyer-written book that matches our CRD with the wussy V6 gasser. Ours is MUCH more powerful b/c we have TORQUE.

To the guy who suggested renting a truck to do this job... I wouldn't do that either, unless the trailer is a 5th wheel. This needs to be done separately. Tongue weight would NOT be a problem, the engine of the second Willy is over the axle, so all the weight of the first one is split between the axle and the ball... Which to me is too MUCH tongue weight. It is dang hard to do, but the best way to load a trailer is BALANCED, or slightly nose heavy to avoid ANY excessive suspension changes (heavy or light) on the rear axle of the tractor. Since it is so hard to do it properly, the conventional idiot-proof idea is to load all trailers nose heavy by a lot, which can and does also cause sway by lightening the front wheels too much. Hence the added "logic" of the great unwashed of "Gets ya a truck with a longer wheelbase" which does nothing to solve the underlying problem - the trailer is not loaded properly.

Want to talk about sway and what causes it? Ask me about bringing my EMPTY 7.5x20 enclosed trailer (small car hauler size) from south Florida to Savannah. 2600 lbs, and it swayed all over the road b/c it was designed to have TOO MUCH tongue weight BEFORE anything was loaded into it. Why? B/c with it's designed use, 4k lbs of car would be stuffed into it and centered over the axles, shifting the center of gravity to the rear, and stabilizing the trailer. But with nothing in it, it almost put me into the ditch several times by "wagging the dog" and b/c my front wheels felt so light.

Tongue too heavy... Tongue too light... Either way: WRONG LOADING. Try again, thanks for playing! 8)
Author:  UFO [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nice Jeeps. :D


yah, 1 at a time.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
a Cummins would work wonders with that.
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:15 pm ]
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The KJ is rated to do 7500 to 7900 lbs hands down, Why? Thats what the Euro's technically post.

Domestic hitch manufacturers rate DEAD WEIGHT pulling for KJ at 5000 lbs, WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING at 7500.

There is an industry understanding of a 10% safety gap for good measure, hence Wt Pulling~5500 lbs, Wt Dist~8200 lbs. You get to Wt Distributing by adding a fairly complex package of spring bars, sway control, and trailer brake controlling and more.

Here's the catch/conclusion- that setup you show is DEAD WEIGHT pulling, no Wt Dist that I can tell so you are out of luck. You may have electric brakes but your trailer weight max and especially a too heavy tongue weight make this wrong. Your headlights will point in the air but most important you will not be able to stable/control you KJ. The truck will pull it amazingly well ~ just when you get over 35 MPH or so you will lose control due to sway and instability and have an accident. The KJ will be able to pull it up those passes; the VM Motori is an amazing engine but unless you are properly packaged with Wt Dist on a minimum Class III rated frame htich with at least six points of attachments and deep frame wings you will crash by 40 or so MPH.

Me? Even if I had a wt dist package I probably would not do this - is too close to the envelope of the point of no return! Call me chicken.
Me: 22 years working for U-Haul installing and selling the whole array of hitch and related aftermarket products- I've seen lots of stuff and litterally seen the carnage of mistakes made.

Roland
Author:  nursecosmo [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:29 pm ]
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If the tongue weight is not excessive, it'll pull it just fine, ye of little faith. Just don't get carried away with speed, cornering, braking and such.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:38 pm ]
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Silverdiesel wrote:
The KJ is rated to do 7500 to 7900 lbs hands down, Why? Thats what the Euro's technically post.

To bad we are in the USA and it is 5000lbs max for any KJ,CRD included(and less for manual KJ's).


I pulled 4500lbs with my GAS KJ,which tipped the scale at 5500lbs alone(without me in it) from Ft Lewis WA to Ft Carson CO with zero issues and could have done another 2000lbs easily(safe? No but could have done it in a pinch).So that was 10,300lbs combined(with my fat stupid in it),kept it out of O/D,kept it between 60-65mph,had zero issues even with passes,and got just over 12mpg's(hey not bad for a small gas v-6 in a Jeep).
Author:  geordi [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:11 am ]
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Congratulations TJ, you read and understood the gas portion of the written-by-lawyers owner's manual. But you missed the key difference:

Our CRD does not have the same capability as your V6. The V6 might claim more HP, but at the cost of less torque and the requirement of higher RPM. I'm impressed that it gave you 12mpg while towing, but you were spinning that tiny engine much faster by keeping it out of OD.

Now, for anyone who understands a diesel engine, that behavior is ludicrous and counter-productive.

The mis-printing in the owners manual is irrelevant. They can print that the CRD has ZERO tow rating, just like Ford does for much of their line, including the Escape Hybrid. That doesn't make it true, it only absolves them of any warranty liability if the owner decides to use the vehicle to what it is physically CAPABLE of doing.

The ratings in the USA are not decided by engineers, they are decided by lawyers. The Europeans actually TEST the vehicles to validate the ratings.

Now, I don't know for SilverDiesel's comments or experience with U-haul, but I DO know that I have butted heads with U-hauls computer on trying to rent equipment, b/c their "almighty computer" told me that the combination of towing a VW Jetta on a tow dolly behind a 6 ton RV was not allowed. Yea... Right. They didn't have the proper listing in the computer for the RV anyway, and I suspect the chassis ratings they DID have were wrong anyway... But the people behind the desk were incapable of independent thought. I'm not accusing him of that at all, I know that there are a LOT of people he will come in contact with who will do stupid things without the true understanding of the risks or the engineering involved... I'm not one of them. U-haul does what they have to, to limit their own liability. I don't fault them for that, it is just annoying sometimes when the system doesn't have the correct information about the capability of the equipment. I'm sure he would suggest that a trailer should ONLY be towed to 45mph, when each and every one of us has seen a U-haul trailer rolling down a highway safely far above that speed. Its just a CYA reflex.

So I have to politely disagree with the speed estimates and the doom / gloom statements he made. That 6840 lb genset is the heaviest thing my CRD has pulled, and at 70mph thank-you-very-much without any problems. Weight distributing hitch? Nope. Pintle Hook into a class 3 receiver. The receiver has a pair of deep arms that are bolted into the frame 3 times on each side, and I used grade 8 bolts b/c I am that kinda guy. I didn't like the grade 5 they came with. So 6 1/2" high-strength bolts are MORE than enough support, IMHO. Also, that genset was a solid unit on it's own trailer. Nothing to adjust, no way to alter it's tongue weight... HOWEVER, the tongue was only about 200 lbs. I could and DID move it by hand. (just showing off for a girl) so it was built to be properly balanced - just a touch of tongue weight for safety, not the 10% of overkill.

Now, about the speeds and sway... Unless that trailer is loaded SO badly that one of the two axles on the tractor are lifted off the ground... You should be pulling straight. Ideally, you want the lines of force all horizontal, which is correct. WDH systems are designed to control and correct for improper trailer loading and try to straighten those lines of force. If you have to stop short and the frame of the trailer is not parallel to the ground, it WILL cause either the hitch to jackknife vertically into the air, or into the ground... Either one is really bad. You lose control b/c again... An axle of the tractor is leaving the ground. The differences in ratings between a "dead weight" and a WDH system aren't because the WDH magically makes the trailer lighter or the system handle more safely... It just acts to counter-act the industry-standard idiot-proof method of trailer design that has tongue-heavy trailers intentionally! The WDH system makers know that 99% of the time, the trailer is going to be nose-down when attached to the tractor, so they are trying to add more rigidity to the ball-and-tongue system to FORCE the trailer's frame into horizontal with the ground. But it can't correct for everything. If the trailer is set up properly, a WDH system will have NOTHING to do, even to max weight.

This is also why it is VITALLY important to have the ball at the correct height. You want the ball height at the exact (or dang close) point of the trailer's frame being parallel to the road, so that all those lines of force (pulling and stopping) are horizontal. That way, when you stop, the trailer is pushing straight through the ball, and not toward the sky or the ground... lifting axles again. See a trend? Balance. Improper loading causes the tongue to be too heavy or too light, making the trailer frame not parallel to the ground. This alters the tractor's suspension and the tire weights on the ground, changing the handling... And enabling crosswinds to cause sway.

I will be taking my FULLY LOADED (6k lbs total estimated with trailer) 7.5x20 car hauler to the scales before I move next week. I'm taking it to the scales with the CRD, but I will be pulling it with my RV when I move. I'll get some pictures and report back on the handling. I blame the bad handling before on the fact that I had some REALLY mismatched tires on the thing (didn't know - don't ever buy a vehicle at night) and one was flat too, that I didn't know about. I expect the road manners to be a lot better this time, since I have been intentionally loading it heavy BEHIND the axles to counter the stupid-heavy ball weight.
Author:  danoid [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:56 am ]
Post subject: 
The tow ratings aren't by lawyers. They are determined by marketing and validated by engineering. Yes it's true that the Euro spec KJ has a higher 'capacity'. Ever try doing one of those mountain pass 2 lane roads at higher than 34-50 mph with a trailer? Exhilarating! In the US, the bogey is an Eisenhower expressway which has much lower grades, wider turns, but higher speeds - hence less weight.

IMO, take two trips. Tug the lighter one first, see how scary it is.

Looks like two nice projects BTW.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
but you were spinning that tiny engine much faster by keeping it out of OD.
Guess you never towed even the lightest load here in CO,even with your CRD you'll be locking out all the O/D's.Plus by locking out the O/D the engine only spun about 400rpm's higher then in O/D anyway.
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