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top heavy CRD
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51551		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  TJ2 [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  top heavy CRD
I've done the GDE tune and the rest of the newb mods and am enjoying driving the Liberty. There's a nearby mountain pass and I like to blow out the cat and do some sport driving on my way over. It could be classed as a narrow, winding passage into an upper valley.

Today, near the bottom I saw an H1 Hummer come roaring up. I let it overtake me so we could play. When it caught up I waited a few seconds and then romped on the pedal. Left it back in the diesel smoke. Got up to speed and there was no way it could keep up.

I felt some oversteer on the curves. It felt like the inner (closest to the inside radius of the curve) rear wheel became unweighted. It wasn't a reassuring feeling and I'm thinking a more competent driver in the H1 (given enough HP) might have reeled me in on the sharp curves. There was no way she had the power to keep up on the semi-straights.

She (yup, an aggro woman) did pass on the down side. . . so I jumped on it again and passed her back on the downhill.

Only way I can think of to increase cornering performance is lower profile tires. . . and that is out of the question.

This also got me think about getting side hilled on something like slickrock. The back side of Merrimac butte for instance could be challenging.

For comparison, I have a '97 TJ. It has 2" lift, but maintains neutral steering on corners.

Anybody else out there playing games?
Author:  JL Rockies [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
Are you coming to LOST Safari?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
low profile tires
stiffer springs
bigger anti-sway bars

but the best answer is - don't road race KJ's - they're not made for it and any mistake is a rollover.
Author:  jinstall [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
I beg to differ as my KJ has done laps on th eNuerburgring track in Germany and spent most of its time running 100+ mph on the autobahns. I have out driven many "performance" cars around here. Since moving back to the US I haev upgraded to Koni adjustable shocks and DBA brake rotors and EBC Yellow pads. I have even autocrossed the KJ and beat a 2.0L Golf GTI with it. Currently I am waiting on a set of H&R 40mm lift springs. The KJ has had 245/70/16 H speed rated tires for about 3 years now. No I have never had an issue with the KJ wanting to get out of hand, the ESC prevents that. If you are tipping aKJ over on the street by driving then you might want to spend some money on upgrading the nut behind the wheel.
Author:  BVCRD [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
That road into Price is designated the most dangerous road in the USA.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
Sounds like you are describing something other than oversteer. You could remove the rear sway bar to induce understeer which is probably good with the Liberty...that and adjusting some tires pressures might help. Taking the rear sway bar off is more likely to let the rear wheels travel more...
Author:  RTStabler51 [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
jinstall wrote:
I beg to differ as my KJ has done laps on th eNuerburgring track in Germany and spent most of its time running 100+ mph on the autobahns. I have out driven many "performance" cars around here. Since moving back to the US I haev upgraded to Koni adjustable shocks and DBA brake rotors and EBC Yellow pads. I have even autocrossed the KJ and beat a 2.0L Golf GTI with it. Currently I am waiting on a set of H&R 40mm lift springs. The KJ has had 245/70/16 H speed rated tires for about 3 years now. No I have never had an issue with the KJ wanting to get out of hand, the ESC prevents that. If you are tipping aKJ over on the street by driving then you might want to spend some money on upgrading the nut behind the wheel.

You have out driven the driver, not the cars, they are two different things :rockon:
Author:  TJ2 [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
BVCRD wrote:
That road into Price is designated the most dangerous road in the USA.


Can be bad. Things like this can happen.

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu48 ... stjeep.jpg This was a nice ALH TDI before the 'incident.'

The section between Price and Spanish Fork generally gets the most action.

PS I just moved up from Moab last fall. Summers there I'd go over to Telluride through the Paradox Valley. Climb over Imogene (camp a night on top) come down in Ouray and soak. And then take Engineer Pass to Lake City. We have a group campout outside of Hartsel. Not sure if I'll make it this year. You ever done Black Bear in you Liberty?

Oh ya, got a friend in Byoonie.
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
jinstall wrote:
Since moving back to the US I have upgraded to Koni adjustable shocks.


Do the Konis help stabilize the vehicle while cornering? Mine sways when cornering and traveling at around 65mp.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
RTStabler51 wrote:
You have out driven the driver, not the cars, they are two different things :rockon:


x2


The Laws of Physics are on the side of the car - you ignore them at your peril.
Author:  JL Rockies [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
So are you going to LOST Safari?
Author:  Tinman [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
It's a Jeep, not a vette. Public roads where other people drive, ride motorcycles and bicycles are not a place to "play" An off road machine and street machine are mutually exclusive. Get a sports car and go to the track and play all you want :) . Besides, you where playing with a military vehicle (you said H1) that has a max speed of about 55mph and if it had an old 6.2, is a complete dog. I'm not sure what you where trying to prove. :roll:
Author:  kapalczynski [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
I have removed, rebent/modified re-installed my front swaybar. Noticible improvement in the corners, much more level. I basically bent a curve in the middle of the bar which reduces the flex of the swaybar and keeps the front end much more level in the corners. Removing the rear will only cause more instability, and it actually causes UNDERSTEER, not oversteer. Stronger swaybar front or weaker rear causes understeer. Weaker front/stronger rear causes oversteer.

I prefer a bit of understeer for snow driving, especially with rear wheel drive that can conpensate. I can fly around in 2wd on snow and not worry about oversteering to the point of loosing it. I can swerve back and fourth at 50+ on snow and IF traction is lost, it's only on the front tires and I stay straight. I feel completely comfortable doing this, even with the 3" lift. Around slower corners slight understeer allows for better control drifting...way safer and more fun. :)

I normally run w/o rear swaybar when Offroad for more flex, and with the front stiffened my body roll ON road w/o the rear is still not bad at all. I would run only front, except I would imagine more even tire wear with both on rather than just the front.

I also run E load rating tires with stiffer sidewalls for better handling. I autocross my 97 corvette (not the jeep because it's a jeep...lol), but I don't like my SUV to handle like a boat either. I still enjoy spirited driving in the corners w/ my Jeep and accelerating out of them.

FYI you can still get bigger wheels/lower profile tires with an all terrain off road tread that would significantly improve handling, but then you would risk scraping the wheels more on rocks with less tire. Not worth it in my opinion. :)
Author:  kapalczynski [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
jinstall wrote:
I beg to differ as my KJ has done laps on th eNuerburgring track in Germany and spent most of its time running 100+ mph on the autobahns. I have out driven many "performance" cars around here. Since moving back to the US I haev upgraded to Koni adjustable shocks and DBA brake rotors and EBC Yellow pads. I have even autocrossed the KJ and beat a 2.0L Golf GTI with it. Currently I am waiting on a set of H&R 40mm lift springs. The KJ has had 245/70/16 H speed rated tires for about 3 years now. No I have never had an issue with the KJ wanting to get out of hand, the ESC prevents that. If you are tipping aKJ over on the street by driving then you might want to spend some money on upgrading the nut behind the wheel.

FYI some of us don't have ESC as it was not an option on the 05's. 10 points out of 10 for the EBC yellow stuff pads. I Run those on my corvette and haven't found a better pad for street/performance driving. Unlike a race pad, the EBC Yellowstuff grips cold as good as stock or better, and much better than stock when warm. I haven't spent the cash on the Jeep for the EBC's, not sure if I can justify it for a daily driver at that cost. How has your pad wear been with those on the jeep? I've had them on the Vette for 3 years now and they hardly look worn, but hard to compare w/o something new to compare to. Not alot of miles on the vette every year compared to my daily drivers either.
Author:  JL Rockies [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
How about the TerraFlex Plus "All Jeep Show" in Tooele in May?
Author:  kapalczynski [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
JL Rockies wrote:
How about the TerraFlex Plus "All Jeep Show" in Tooele in May?


Tooele Utah is a 10hr drive for me...we'll see. :)
Author:  TJ2 [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
JL Rockies wrote:
So are you going to LOST Safari?


No. I'll be busy at that time. I'm booked full of family business for the foreseeable future.

Same for the Teraflex show. I did go down to SL to get mudflaps (inspection BS) at Teraflex central (just off 5300 and the freeway). They've got a nice set up.
Author:  JL Rockies [ Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
Are you on RME (Rocky Mountain Extreme)?
Author:  TJ2 [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
nope

My background is: I moved to Moab in 3/02. Went out with a guy in a YJ for a couple years, then bought a '97 TJ after I wrecked my VW TDI. I went out wheeling 2 or 3 times a week in Moab and Colorado west slope. Love the San Juans in the summer. Moved to Ogden area to help with aging parents last November.

There's very little terrain in the Moab area I've not been over in a jeep or mountain bike. But, I've never done Pritchett canyon, Potato Salad, or the Escalator in my own jeep.

My equipment is not really tricked out. I like a member's saying. . . it's not what you drive, it's where you're able to take it.
Author:  mackruss [ Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: top heavy CRD
Perhaps the Hummer you took on was the same one that did so well in the recent Dakar Rally :ROTFL:

Fit 18" rims with low profile tires and that will help with the understeer. Find a wheel alignment specialist and
alter your camber for better handling and stay on the tar. If you have the money then upgrade to the Jeep Grand ST
and you'll have the best of both worlds :BANANA:
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