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(Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
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Author:  dieselsmoke [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
hi all!, im not new to diesel but new here. iv got an 06 cummins with around 800hp so i love the smoke and flowing lots of air.....

So i read the sticky F37 post which contains how to find out if your liberty has it or not(F37) and a brief description of it. However i really dont understand it. So are all the liberty TC's crap? Was DC try'n to fix a TC issues with a ECU re flash the caused more issues? Is there a fix for this?....my wife and i are going to look at an 06 liberty with 40k miles and i want to know all about the F37 issues before i buy. If it has a problem no big deal, ill just get a new TC from suncoast, or if the ECU is the issues cant i just get it re flash? i would just like to know an end all no chit fix for this F37 thing cause from what i see this seems to be the "big" problem with them. Thanks in advance for the help and advice. We are going tuesday!!!!!! to look at this liberty so any input asap would be great.
Author:  stoutdog [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
dieselsmoke wrote:
hi all!, im not new to diesel but new here. iv got an 06 cummins with around 800hp so i love the smoke and flowing lots of air.....

So i read the sticky F37 post which contains how to find out if your liberty has it or not(F37) and a brief description of it. However i really dont understand it. So are all the liberty TC's crap? Was DC try'n to fix a TC issues with a ECU re flash the caused more issues? Is there a fix for this?....my wife and i are going to look at an 06 liberty with 40k miles and i want to know all about the F37 issues before i buy. If it has a problem no big deal, ill just get a new TC from suncoast, or if the ECU is the issues cant i just get it re flash? i would just like to know an end all no chit fix for this F37 thing cause from what i see this seems to be the "big" problem with them. Thanks in advance for the help and advice. We are going tuesday!!!!!! to look at this liberty so any input asap would be great.

First off. Get the CRD, you'll like it if you like a vehicle that you have to do the work on :sombrero:

The F37 was DC's fix for a faulty TC. In included a new TC and a TCM tune, though some lucky '05s only got the new TC. The newer version TC is much better, but is still not sufficient for high-power operations. Consider either a Suncoast TC or a Euro TC, both of which we have talked about extensively on this site.

Don't be concerned too much about the F37 at the moment. It didn't kill the Jeep, it just neutered it a little bit, and I believe that there are a couple of companies, including Suncoast, working on cracking the TCM and rewriting the code as we speak :pepper:

If you realllly want to spice up your CRD. Replace the TC and invest in the GDE Hot Tune (greendieselengineering.com). Every user agrees, it's worth every penny!
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
wow, you cleared it up for me. thanks a bunch! so an 06 should be ok...right? first thing the wife and i talked about was going ahead and get'n a billet TC and a hot tune for it. i didnt know there were sooooo many do it yourself mods. these look like a ton of fun.

So do you guys replace the injection pumps(or modify internals flow more fuel) or extrude/hone the injector nozzles or replace the nozzles all together?

Man, so many questions but i dont want to piss anyone off. i have search through the threads most of the day but not too much this in depth.....
Author:  stoutdog [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
dieselsmoke wrote:
wow, you cleared it up for me. thanks a bunch! so an 06 should be ok...right? first thing the wife and i talked about was going ahead and get'n a billet TC and a hot tune for it. i didnt know there were sooooo many do it yourself mods. these look like a ton of fun.

So do you guys replace the injection pumps(or modify internals flow more fuel) or extrude/hone the injector nozzles or replace the nozzles all together?

Man, so many questions but i dont want to piss anyone off. i have search through the threads most of the day but not too much this in depth.....

You're welcome. I hope an '06 is just fine, it's what I drive :JEEPIN:

With a new TC and hot tune, and whatever other DIY mods you and the wifey can agree on, I think you'll both be very satisfied.

I've not touch my injectors... GDE modifies the injector timing, but I don't mess with them.

If you have any questions, and you're worried about being labeled a "newb," feel free to PM me. None of us bite. :POPCORN:
Author:  linewarbr [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
Smoke,

Welcome to the world of CRD KJ's. Here is a breakdown on the F37:

In stock form, when first released, CRD Liberties produced enough torque to overcome the dampener ability of the stock torque converter used in the 545RFE trans. (the same as behind Hemi engines) This caused shudder of the driveline, and detonated a few TC's. The F37 was instituted as a "fix" for longevity; the orders given to dealers were to flash the Jeep, which detuned the engine and changed the shift points on the TCM. Part of that recall was to replace the torque converter with a newer unit, if the dealer deemed it necessary. (If the tech could demonstrate shudder/ trans problems - see below)

Somewhere in this time frame, there was also a recall for the transmission pump - not sure which recall/ Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) this was.

The reflash of the TCM raised the 5th lockup shift point to a higher speed. Non-F37 TCM's shift at 57 mph via GPS, or about 53/ 54 mph via the speedo with stock tires. (For some reason, stock, the speedo is off about 4 mph in all CRD's) The F37 flash raised it to 61 mph via GPS or 57 mph via the speedo with stock tires. It is extremely irritating on 55mph highways, since you have to speed up to at least 61 mph, let it lockup, and then slow down to about 57 to maintain lockup. It will downshift at 56 mph to 4th lockup. (#'s via GPS)

In 11/2005, Chrysler changed over to a new style of torque converter that was less prone to failure, so all CRD's with a build date of 12/2005 or later have that TC from the factory. (Check the build sticker on the jamb of the driver's door for the build date) Any built before that, if the owner could demonstrate shudder, would have the TC replaced as a part of the F37 recall. However, F37 was not instituted till after all US delivery CRD's were manufactured, so an owner had to bring in their CRD for the flash. Therefore it is possible to find (though rare) an 06 CRD with a 12/2005 or later build date that has not had the F37 detune performed. Some even had TC replacements, had the engine detuned, but for some reason retained the old shift points. (I think UFO has one like this)

Things to check on your potential CRD are:

1.) Shift points under moderate acceleration (to determine if it has had F37).
2.) Getting the TC to lock up in 5th then applying steady pedal pressure to increase torque in lockup to see if it will shudder - best done on a grade if possible.
3.) Squeeze/ handle the boost hoses running to/ from the intercooler to see if there is oil soaked through from the CCV vent. Oil will degrade these hoses over time and leave you stranded when they burst.
4.) Check its history on EGR valve/ FCV valve replacement. (another common problem)

If you decide to purchase, I strongly suggest a Green Diesel Engineering ECO-Tune or HOT Tune. This will restore the engine's torque that the F37 detune took away, and negate the problems you might experience with the EGR valve. There are other routes you can go, too, (SEGR, InMotion Tuning) but this is one of the most common.

Here is a link to a thread that goes into the EGR and CCV in more detail: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50930&p=581796#p581796

As far as mechanical upgrades like many do to the Cummins, you are limited by the physical properties of the engine. This engine has an aluminum head, and if you overdo the addition of fuel and boost, you will blow it. GDE and InMotion both tune the engine via ECU mapping to work to it's utmost within the physical limitations that it has.

If you do decide to upgrade injectors, add chip or "fooler" boxes, just keep in mind that it is well-nigh impossible to find a mechanic that knows anything about these engines. Most Jeep techs would even be surprised, saying "I didn't know these came with a diesel. . . ?" That is why this board is what it is - we are our own Jeep diesel service techs.
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
The F37 was DC's fix for a faulty TC. In included a new TC and a TCM tune, though some lucky '05s only got the new TC. The newer version TC is much better, but is still not sufficient for high-power operations. Consider either a Suncoast TC or a Euro TC, both of which we have talked about extensively on this site.[/quote]


I'm not sure how much more "high-power" you can get right now than a GDE HOT tune + Non-F37 TCM...and that's what I'm running with the new OEM TC. No problems even in the mountains. In fact, the SunCoast is the only TC replacement option I have read about where people have not been happy. Just throwing that out there...
Author:  linewarbr [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
LibertyCRD wrote:
The F37 was DC's fix for a faulty TC. In included a new TC and a TCM tune...


The F37 did not include a new TC; a newer-model TC was substituted for the older one if the customer or service tech could demonstrate shudder.

Buyer beware: verifying that the CRD you are looking at purchasing has had F37 performed does not mean for sure that it has a newer model TC UNLESS it has a build date of 12/2005 or later. If it is not F37'ed, and you intend to upgrade the TC anyway, BUY IT.

Another method of verifying the recalls done to the Jeep is to go to www.Jeep.com/owners and fill out the "Contact Us" email requesting a build sheet and recall data for the Jeep you are looking at. You will need the VIN from it.
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
Yes, they are separate. For instance, my CRD had a new TC installed 2/2007 under warranty, but it does NOT have the F37 (according to the 62 MPH lock-up rule I read about). Odd, huh?
Author:  linewarbr [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
LibertyCRD wrote:
Yes, they are separate. For instance, my CRD had a new TC installed 2/2007 under warranty, but it does NOT have the F37 (according to the 62 MPH lock-up rule I read about). Odd, huh?


Exactly, that's why it's so weird. If you're ever strapped for cash you could try selling your non-F37 TCM here. The last few have sold for $600+ but be ready to prove it with video confirmed via GPS mph. Tire sizes can affect the speedo readout and, apparently, when it shifts. What speed does yours shift at? Via Speedo, or GPS?
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
WOW..... :pepper: thanks for the wealth of information!!!! what an awesome site. the wife and i just got back from the bank a little while ago. we are going to look at the CRD tomorrow morning and we'er both very exited. Ill make sure i check all of the listed above when buy'n shall we decide to buy....Also while we are at it.....

This CRD is an 06 with 45,000 miles. they want $13900 and they said they are willing to deal on this one b/c "they dont wants it on the lot becasue no one wants a diesel Liberty" LMAO im thinking im just going to offer them $12,000 cash for it. Would this be a good deal? what about the price they currently have? i have researched values and they are all over the place with the liberty.

This model is only the sport with nothing fancy. just standard applications and 4x4 of course and some power locks and windows.

What you guys think would be fair price wise?

Also thanks again for the help. you guys are awesome!
Author:  stoutdog [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
dieselsmoke wrote:
WOW..... :pepper: thanks for the wealth of information!!!! what an awesome site. the wife and i just got back from the bank a little while ago. we are going to look at the CRD tomorrow morning and we'er both very exited. Ill make sure i check all of the listed above when buy'n shall we decide to buy....Also while we are at it.....

This CRD is an 06 with 45,000 miles. they want $13900 and they said they are willing to deal on this one b/c "they dont wants it on the lot becasue no one wants a diesel Liberty" LMAO im thinking im just going to offer them $12,000 cash for it. Would this be a good deal? what about the price they currently have? i have researched values and they are all over the place with the liberty.

This model is only the sport with nothing fancy. just standard applications and 4x4 of course and some power locks and windows.

What you guys think would be fair price wise?

Also thanks again for the help. you guys are awesome!


See if you can get them down to $11k. I got my '06 Limited with 26k miles this past summer for 16k... double the mileage, halve the accessories, and I think $11k sounds reasonable.
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
Also we are just going to go ahead and budget a new TC and a hot tune from somewhere. i need to contact green's btw. i looked at green's website and didint see a price for the re flash or much info on the hot tune. what does this run? should i just call them up? and also whats wrong with the Suncoast TC? i know they make some ok stuff for diesels. i would think that this would be a good TC. Could it be that people dont like the stall and lock up times? when it comes down to it the wife and i like Billet and Bullet Proof. we have spent too much money on half booty'n our toys in the past and want something that is going to last. Keep in mind this will be her daily driver which she wants to be semi-quick for her and i will lead foot the hell out of it when im behind the wheel. it's hereditary :5SHOTS:
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
stoutdog wrote:
dieselsmoke wrote:
WOW..... :pepper: thanks for the wealth of information!!!! what an awesome site. the wife and i just got back from the bank a little while ago. we are going to look at the CRD tomorrow morning and we'er both very exited. Ill make sure i check all of the listed above when buy'n shall we decide to buy....Also while we are at it.....

This CRD is an 06 with 45,000 miles. they want $13900 and they said they are willing to deal on this one b/c "they dont wants it on the lot becasue no one wants a diesel Liberty" LMAO im thinking im just going to offer them $12,000 cash for it. Would this be a good deal? what about the price they currently have? i have researched values and they are all over the place with the liberty.

This model is only the sport with nothing fancy. just standard applications and 4x4 of course and some power locks and windows.

What you guys think would be fair price wise?

Also thanks again for the help. you guys are awesome!


See if you can get them down to $11k. I got my '06 Limited with 26k miles this past summer for 16k... double the mileage, halve the accessories, and I think $11k sounds reasonable.


Really?!?!?!?!?......worst they can do is say no iguess
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
What about on trade in? we have a 08 magnum as her daily right now and i think we might just want to trade it.......think that would benefit or hinder us? the cash is still an option
Author:  linewarbr [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
I bought my 06 Sport in September 2008 with $25K miles on it for $12K, so I second the $11K cash.

What I would do is haggle with them on price, get them down to $11K, then when all is ready to go, say, "I will trade in my Dodge Magnum, that should cover it thank you." Especially if you get there like 2 hours before closing time, they will want to get you out of there and make a sale at the same time. (What can I say? I have no love for car dealers.) Remember, they want to make money. To do that, they need to sell cars. If it's been on the lot for a while, they are losing money on it every day that it doesn't sell.

Go to www.greendieselengineering.com and scroll down to the bottom of their home page. You will see a drop down menu with tune/ price options, and a link that explains the buying process. Currently I think they only accept PayPal, and it's $550 for the Hot Tune if you send them your ECU. If you overnight them your ECU, they have a VERY quick turnaround. They will overnight it back the same day they receive it.

As for the torque converter upgrade, opinions here are pretty split. The Suncoast works on the principle of adding mass to the flywheel (with billet parts) to smooth torque pulses and allow maximum torque multiplication without shudder. The Euro TC uses stronger dampener springs than the stock unit to absorb torque pulses and prevent shudder. My personal opinion is that if you are planning on doing a lot of heavy towing with the CRD, go with the Suncoast, and if you are planning on just hot-dogging it a lot, go with the Euro. (Also, the Euro is 1/2 the cost of the Suncoast.)
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
linewarbr wrote:
I bought my 06 Sport in September 2008 with $25K miles on it for $12K, so I second the $11K cash.

What I would do is haggle with them on price, get them down to $11K, then when all is ready to go, say, "I will trade in my Dodge Magnum, that should cover it thank you." Especially if you get there like 2 hours before closing time, they will want to get you out of there and make a sale at the same time. (What can I say? I have no love for car dealers.) Remember, they want to make money. To do that, they need to sell cars. If it's been on the lot for a while, they are losing money on it every day that it doesn't sell.

Go to http://www.greendieselengineering.com and scroll down to the bottom of their home page. You will see a drop down menu with tune/ price options, and a link that explains the buying process. Currently I think they only accept PayPal, and it's $550 for the Hot Tune if you send them your ECU. If you overnight them your ECU, they have a VERY quick turnaround. They will overnight it back the same day they receive it.

As for the torque converter upgrade, opinions here are pretty split. The Suncoast works on the principle of adding mass to the flywheel (with billet parts) to smooth torque pulses and allow maximum torque multiplication without shudder. The Euro TC uses stronger dampener springs than the stock unit to absorb torque pulses and prevent shudder. My personal opinion is that if you are planning on doing a lot of heavy towing with the CRD, go with the Suncoast, and if you are planning on just hot-dogging it a lot, go with the Euro. (Also, the Euro is 1/2 the cost of the Suncoast.)


Nice, thanks for info. ill check out the link again and search some more. Yea we arnt really gonna tow with it. just drive it so ill look into the Euro TC

Also i have read that it could be fairly easy to overspool the stock turbo when adding boost foolers,boost controlers and computer aids which increase boost pressures....So, Whats a fix to this? not boosting too much or going with a larger turbo? its sounds as if the turbo is under sized for this little diesel thus the engine is creating too much heat for it or what? in the mean time ill keep serching and reading.
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
i just finished the Euro vs. Suncoast thread. Very interesting reading in there. Hmmmm..makes it tough to decide sometimes. I like the fact that Suncoast uses Sonnax parts. My cummins trans is built with billet sonnax parts and not one hick-up....yet :roll: Also it looks as if the suncoast it just way over built...whcih can be a good thing. But the difference in price is the only issue. If the Euro will hold the power for half the cost, great! But i know the suncoast should last forever. Its a tough one for sure...i will have to do more research for sure.

What are some of you guys run'n?(TQ) what kind of numbers you put'n down?(HP,tq)
Author:  linewarbr [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
dieselsmoke wrote:
Also i have read that it could be fairly easy to overspool the stock turbo when adding boost foolers,boost controlers and computer aids which increase boost pressures....So, Whats a fix to this? not boosting too much or going with a larger turbo? its sounds as if the turbo is under sized for this little diesel thus the engine is creating too much heat for it or what? in the mean time ill keep serching and reading.


That's why not many here will advise using foolers, such as Striker modules or DR chips and the like. They only fool the engine computer so it will produce more boost and add more fuel. That's fine on a Cummins up to a poi, but our engines are not made to handle the stress. You do that and you risk a blown head or skipped timing.

The GDE tunes and InMotion's tuning both address all aspects of the engine's performance - boost, fuel, timing, etc - and keep it within the parameters that our engines' physical characteristics can handle.

The size of the turbo is not an issue; our stock turbo, being a VNT turbo, can produce boost upwards of 30 psi. GDE also offers an upgrade kit to an electronic (rather than vacuum) controlled VVT turbo that will REALLY light up the Jeep. But, it's pricey, at $2500.
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
yea...i just got off the phone with keith @ GDE and he informed me that the stock turbo was in a way too big for the engine.(exhaust/turbine wheel) thats is
Author:  dieselsmoke [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: (Newb here)going to buy 06 crd, F37 questions
OK, so i just have the worst experience ever when we went to look at he 06. im not going into deatil on that one :banghead: it will raise my blood pressure lol, but yea...this thing had been smashed and was nothing like the pics online. we came ready to buy it but......red clay was caked under the body, huge dents under the body and on skid plate, turbo seals were leaking oil, rear diff pinion seal leaking, intercooler hoses saturated with oil, sun visor broken, cup holder cover missing, no manual,rotors warped, tires w/ only say...30% left, and transfer case leaking...oh and it had the flash. So with that being said despite the damage i offered them $10k and things got ugly so we left....they didnt even try to stop us or counter offer. but anyways. Lesson learned...i could keep going on and on but i really dont want to get mad. leaast they could have done was clean it. At any rate we did like the power and the wide field of veiw. It felt good to drive. We will deff be get'n one asap. Found one in KY..let you guys know how that goes :5SHOTS: :dizzy:
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