Bio v. MPG

stoutdog · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 1:55 pm

I know a bunch of folks on here are running various levels of biodiesel in their CRDs. In light of recent events ( :evil:

) I'm considering running B99, which I can get locally, year-round. Making it myself is not an option, at the moment, as I live in an apartment complex. What sort of mpg hits did you all experience when you switched over? I've heard 10% is about right, which is close to the loss I saw when I tested biodiesel a little bit in my CRD last spring...

Last I calculated, a full tank of B99 costs about $5 more than regular diesel given the mpg hit, with biodiesel currently costing about $0.20 less than regular.

Unfortunately, mixing is too much of a pain to do right now... The local place only provides B99 and is already a hassle to get to (40 minutes out of my way, excepting the rare occasion when I'm in that area) without taking extra time to top off with dino fuel.

I also don't drive much, excepting some contract work I've been doing up in Flagstaff, so I likely won't be filling up but once every month or so. Any concern over storing biodiesel in my tank for that long - microbes, bacteria, etc.?

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 2:12 pm

The information you posted is consistent with my experience. My MPG loss varies with the fuel I get. The commercial supplier I use uses multiple suppliers to meet their demand, so sometimes I get better mileage and sometimes less. The worst I've seen is about 21 mpg average. The best around 27 mpg. With dino I consistently get 29 mpg average. (all EVIC numbers).

In the winter I run B20 because I've had the fuel I get gel around 50F (again, varies with supplier -- probably feedstock differences). The place I buy fuel from is out of the way for me too, so I got in the habit of stopping for breakfast friday mornings and stopping for the fuel after that....but my job allows me that flexibility. In the winters I stop every 3-4 weeks and fill up four 5 gallon cans. I put one five gallon can in before I top off the tank with dino. I usually go through about 3/4 tank in a week. I am probably running around B30 (my sig claims b20...but I can only get so close...) when I do this.

Anyway, working it into my weekly schedule made it easier for me. I like running it for various reasons (lubricity, avoid funding big oil and the mid-east, cleaner air, renewable, etc, etc). I don't think from a pure dollars and cents perspective it makes a huge difference, but when these other values are factored in, it works for me.

Chester

Hydraulic Jack · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 4:16 pm

There must be some kind of shortage of Soy based Bio.......The station I get mine at in Fowlerville MI their B99 is $1.37 more than dino right now....In the past it was only $.75 or so more........HJ

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon May 17, 2010 5:04 pm

My economy sweet spot seems to be at about B20 (after which mileage does decrease slightly). Your figure of about 10% for B99/100 seems about right based on my experience with both poultry, soy, and WVO-based bio.

Dan

stoutdog · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 10:07 am

Hydraulic Jack wrote:

There must be some kind of shortage of Soy based Bio.......The station I get mine at in Fowlerville MI their B99 is $1.37 more than dino right now....In the past it was only $.75 or so more........HJ

HJ, it seems to depend more on the region of the country you are in than anything else... Here in AZ, bio is always about the same price as regular unleaded.

Hydraulic Jack · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 10:26 am

I still run it no matter how much it costs (at least right now). My son brought me 10 gallons of B99 last night........I'm going to top off with dino and that should put me at around B75 or so.........I normally run B50 in the summer and B20 in the winter.......HJ

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 9:36 pm

Hydraulic Jack wrote:

There must be some kind of shortage of Soy based Bio.......The station I get mine at in Fowlerville MI their B99 is $1.37 more than dino right now....In the past it was only $.75 or so more........HJ

HJ I think that this is due to the suspension of the $1 blenders credit for bio-diesel (does not affect ethanol folks). This has idled many of the smaller bean-based bio-d plants. I would be that the stockyard bio-d is what is being sold in the (pure conjecture on my part). Soy-oil is cost prohibitive without the credit at this time. I'll leave the politics and what I think about it out of the discussion :banghead:

dieselsmoke · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 11:00 pm

Stout, I dont know too much about Bio. IMO, it takes more time than i have to make it, and if you get it at the pump its $$$$$$$$$$$$. Here in NC Bio is rare unless you get near somewhere very Liberal. And I have a BS degree in Diesel Technology(which isnt say'n much lol) and i have tried to time at least 10 diff turbo diesel engines that the injection pump gear was off time with the engine and the bio diesel locked up the plungers making the injection pump skip...making it worthless.

dieselsmoke · **Posted:** Tue May 18, 2010 11:02 pm

stoutdog wrote:

I know a bunch of folks on here are running various levels of biodiesel in their CRDs. In light of recent events ( :evil:

) I'm considering running B99, which I can get locally, year-round. Making it myself is not an option, at the moment, as I live in an apartment complex. What sort of mpg hits did you all experience when you switched over? I've heard 10% is about right, which is close to the loss I saw when I tested biodiesel a little bit in my CRD last spring...

Last I calculated, a full tank of B99 costs about $5 more than regular diesel given the mpg hit, with biodiesel currently costing about $0.20 less than regular.

Unfortunately, mixing is too much of a pain to do right now... The local place only provides B99 and is already a hassle to get to (40 minutes out of my way, excepting the rare occasion when I'm in that area) without taking extra time to top off with dino fuel.

I also don't drive much, excepting some contract work I've been doing up in Flagstaff, so I likely won't be filling up but once every month or so. Any concern over storing biodiesel in my tank for that long - microbes, bacteria, etc.?

If it sits.....it will not be good man. i wouldnt risk it. Iv been in many John deere programs where "quality" bio fuel has locked up injection pumps in a matter of a month of sit'n or so

stoutdog · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 6:40 am

dieselsmoke wrote:

Stout, I dont know too much about Bio. IMO, it takes more time than i have to make it, and if you get it at the pump its $$$$$$$$$$$$. Here in NC Bio is rare unless you get near somewhere very Liberal. And I have a BS degree in Diesel Technology(which isnt say'n much lol) and i have tried to time at least 10 diff turbo diesel engines that the injection pump gear was off time with the engine and the bio diesel locked up the plungers making the injection pump skip...making it worthless.

Quote:

If it sits.....it will not be good man. i wouldnt risk it. Iv been in many John deere programs where "quality" bio fuel has locked up injection pumps in a matter of a month of sit'n or so

Yikes, thanks for letting me know! :shock:

I'm on vacation right now, but I only have a B20 mix in the tank at the moment.... hope that won't be a problem. If what you say about longevity issues is true, then maybe it's not worth it....

Anybody else have concerns of biodiesel and injection pumps?

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 9:47 am

Quote:

Anybody else have concerns of biodiesel and injection pumps?

My concern would go beyond just the pump and rail and would start with your tank. Actually, my concern would start with the creator of the B100 and the blender to make B99 and the additives/stabilizers as well as the biocides they do/do not put in to keep your fuel from spoiling in the tank. Even the source of the bio can make some different (but I will defer that information to brew experts on this site) If it were just petro and just bio with nothing else (added) I would not risk turning your tank into a petri dish...especially in the climate you live and the length of time it will be in the tank :ALONE:

Boilermaker2

stoutdog · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 9:53 am

boilermaker2 wrote:

Quote:

Anybody else have concerns of biodiesel and injection pumps?

My concern would go beyond just the pump and rail and would start with your tank. Actually, my concern would start with the creator of the B100 and the blender to make B99 and the additives/stabilizers as well as the biocides they do/do not put in to keep your fuel from spoiling in the tank. Even the source of the bio can make some different (but I will defer that information to brew experts on this site) If it were just petro and just bio with nothing else (added) I would not risk turning your tank into a petri dish...especially in the climate you live and the length of time it will be in the tank :ALONE:

Boilermaker2

Boiler, thanks for the advice. I do know that the place I get the B99 from is ATSM certified and tests every tank. Once, I actually was turned away by them because their most recent tank of bio failed in one of the parameters of their test. So I'm certain it is quality bio... That said, I have no clue what additives/biocides they may or may not use. Hrm....

What are your concerns about the rail? I get the pump/fuel filter/tank concerns...

Thanks again for the advice. Regardless of what you and dieselsmoke have to say in answer to my more recent questions, I think you've both swayed me away from using B99 simply because of how slowly I will go through a full tank. :rockon:

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 10:35 am

Let me blunt about the rail and upfront because I don't need to be flamed by the users that use B100 and other blends on the board...I have used B5-B20 for over ~80% of my fuel for over 110k miles and take the negligable but noticable hit on mileage because the source is 100% domestic.

Years ago on this site, there was great debate about the affect of the bio and the high temps/pressures of the fuel as it flowed through the rail and out of the injectors. There was a discrepency that DCX roled the CRD's down the line with a full tank of B5 yet did not give much (if any) advice/direction to the consumer regarding the affect http://www.allbusiness.com/operations/shipping/215239-1.htmlIf memory serves me correctly, some dealership flatly refused to recommmend even B5 and threatened the revocation of the warranty :banghead:

A google search will show several threads and it may be a nice trip down memory lane for some :dizzy:

With all that written, UFO and others have run bio for years now. I'll defer to some of their experiences.

Lastly, the bio-D is a great emulsifier. There was also discussions whether some of the seals could handle bio's ability to dissolve some of the seals and other components. On the other hand, your components will be spiffy-clean :lol:

Again, I defer to other that have gone above B20 early and often.

If I had the opportunity to go above B20, I would if I trusted the source. I don't so I won't. I could make it myself but then again I used the word "trust"...I am not willing to offer up to the alter of my every increasing knowldge/experience my vehicle that gets me to work every day.

Boilermaker2

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 9:52 pm

In the summer I often run B99 here in the Seattle area. To answer your question about growth, yes it happens. I once but B99 in a 5 gallon (new) fuel can and forgot about it. After two months I checked it and it was totally GREEN! You should use a fuel treatment (Amsoil, Stanadyne, Power Service, Lubro Moly etc) if youre using bio as well as standard diesel.

dieselsmoke · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 10:48 pm

stoutdog wrote:

boilermaker2 wrote:

Quote:

Anybody else have concerns of biodiesel and injection pumps?

My concern would go beyond just the pump and rail and would start with your tank. Actually, my concern would start with the creator of the B100 and the blender to make B99 and the additives/stabilizers as well as the biocides they do/do not put in to keep your fuel from spoiling in the tank. Even the source of the bio can make some different (but I will defer that information to brew experts on this site) If it were just petro and just bio with nothing else (added) I would not risk turning your tank into a petri dish...especially in the climate you live and the length of time it will be in the tank :ALONE:

Boilermaker2

Boiler, thanks for the advice. I do know that the place I get the B99 from is ATSM certified and tests every tank. Once, I actually was turned away by them because their most recent tank of bio failed in one of the parameters of their test. So I'm certain it is quality bio... That said, I have no clue what additives/biocides they may or may not use. Hrm....

What are your concerns about the rail? I get the pump/fuel filter/tank concerns...

Thanks again for the advice. Regardless of what you and dieselsmoke have to say in answer to my more recent questions, I think you've both swayed me away from using B99 simply because of how slowly I will go through a full tank. :rockon:

Man, if you were to use the stuff everyday, id say go for it. but it seems as if your out of town a bunch so i wouldnt risk it. Im sure you know, but if the right blend is used...its quite awesome stuff. there was a school doing some tests of the atomization,flash point, yada yada and i got a rare chance to see inside the combustion chamber with a tiny orthoscopic camera thingy and could see diffrent blends burn. The bio burnt cleaner, obviously....but also totaly atomized unlike ULSD...it was very cool for me to see it, being im a huge power freak and so not a bio fuel guy. I have a new respect for the stuff. just have to know how to use it. ill try and get a link to that vid.

stoutdog · **Posted:** Wed May 19, 2010 11:30 pm

CRD Joe wrote:

In the summer I often run B99 here in the Seattle area. To answer your question about growth, yes it happens. I once but B99 in a 5 gallon (new) fuel can and forgot about it. After two months I checked it and it was totally GREEN! You should use a fuel treatment (Amsoil, Stanadyne, Power Service, Lubro Moly etc) if youre using bio as well as standard diesel.

Yuck! I already run PS somewhat, and I have a full dose of it in the current tank of B20, so I hope I'm okay.... maybe I'll head up to the lakes east of Phx as soon as I get back and burn off the rest of the tank

dieselsmoke wrote:

Man, if you were to use the stuff everyday, id say go for it. but it seems as if your out of town a bunch so i wouldnt risk it. Im sure you know, but if the right blend is used...its quite awesome stuff. there was a school doing some tests of the atomization,flash point, yada yada and i got a rare chance to see inside the combustion chamber with a tiny orthoscopic camera thingy and could see diffrent blends burn. The bio burnt cleaner, obviously....but also totaly atomized unlike ULSD...it was very cool for me to see it, being im a huge power freak and so not a bio fuel guy. I have a new respect for the stuff. just have to know how to use it. ill try and get a link to that vid.

Yea. I'm a graduate student, so I hardly know where I'll be two-three months from now... between school in Tempe, my hometown in Florida, potential jobs in DC, and conferences all over the place, it travel a TON. And I live within four miles of everything I need, so I bike almost everywhere... I've had times where I've put less than 100 miles on the CRD is a month! Maybe, at the moment, biodiesel isn't for me :cry:

I'd love to see that vid.

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Thu May 20, 2010 12:16 am

Stout I didnt mean to scare you. Just dont let the stuff sit for long periods of time. At least not without putting Stabil in it.

stoutdog · **Posted:** Thu May 20, 2010 7:14 am

CRD Joe wrote:

Stout I didnt mean to scare you. Just dont let the stuff sit for long periods of time. At least not without putting Stabil in it.

No worries, you didn't scare me. You've just helped me realize that I shouldn't run biodiesel given my current driving habits.

Bio v. MPG

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