Cause for negative front camber? Please help diagnose

SBosco · **Posted:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:14 pm

I have about 53,000 miles on my CRD with 245/65/17 Firestone Destination A/Ts and stock shocks/springs. My problem is that my front wheels have some pretty significant negative camber (evident in my tire wear). Now I'm a bit stumped as to what could be causing the negative camber at such low miles and light duty use. :banghead:

I understand that lowering a vehicle usually causes some negative camber but I really didn't think the springs could have sagged that much in only 53,000 miles. I don't do anywhere near as much off-roading as I would like (handful of times per year), and even the off-roading I do is not what I would consider harsh or extreme. :roll:

I would say that I drive my liberty a bit harder than many people on the road, but not harder than I have driven any other vehicles which haven't resulting in damage or problems.

The tires now have 43,000 miles on them and the front ones need to be replaced in a serious way, because of the inside wear. The rears have about another 1/8" of tread-life remaining.

I am having an alignment done after I install the new tires, and am hoping that would help. I am still a bit shocked though that I am having alignment issues so early. Most vehicles I have dealt with don't need alignments before at least 80,000 miles or so...sooner if they are off-roaded or raced.

Please let me know if there are any underlying causes I am unaware of and/or specific reasons/past experiences.

Thanks in advance, as any thoughts and/or suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

long_tall_texan · **Posted:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:22 pm

The problem is most likely alignment. KJ springs sag - all of them - gasser or CRD. It is a noticeable amont by 20k miles. More that that by 53k. If you have never gotten an alignment, that is your problem. Also sounds like you do not rotate tires either. Tires should be rotated every 5k miles - 10k at the most. It will ride better, and have better tire wear if they are rotated frequently. I just rotate mine every time I do an oil change. Check your center of hub to fender height as shown over here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43472

If you are below 19", then you are sagging, thus causing the issue you are describing.

SBosco · **Posted:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:50 pm

long_tall_texan wrote:

The problem is most likely alignment. KJ springs sag - all of them - gasser or CRD. It is a noticeable amont by 20k miles. More that that by 53k. If you have never gotten an alignment, that is your problem. Also sounds like you do not rotate tires either. Tires should be rotated every 5k miles - 10k at the most. It will ride better, and have better tire wear if they are rotated frequently. I just rotate mine every time I do an oil change. Check your center of hub to fender height as shown over here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43472

If you are below 19", then you are sagging, thus causing the issue you are describing.

You are right...admittedly, I have been lazy and not rotated them as frequently as I should have. Would you reccomend getting new springs? I like the oil change interval, and I think I will use that 6,000 mile reminder to rotate the rubbers. I was lazy and hesitant before because, for some reason, the oasis chrome clad wheels have been a pain to balance properly and the tire shops reccomended I keep the wheels with more weight/unperfect balancing on the rear so I don't feel the vibrations as much.

Thanks for the advice with the sagging measurement though, I will check the height meaurement.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:02 pm

You always should get a alignment done once a year,saves alot in the long run to get one every year.Also helps find bad parts like bearings and tie rod ends early before failure along with greatly increasing tire life.

Try and find a place that does lifetime alignments like Firestone,my lifetime warranty has paid for itself well over 100 times,paid $130 for the 1st one and the last 40 or so alignments have been 100% free.

WelshCherokeeCRD · **Joined:** Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:57 am **Posts:** 68

I feel I should add that if you have excessive wear on the inside edge and the rest of the tire is even across the tread that is caused by toe, which is also affected by sag.

Also, the direction our tires go when the vehicle is lifted is negative camber...when the springs sag that causes the tire to go more positive. It's toe causing your wear

I feel like I finally contributed something and I'm not sure if it hurts :dizzy:

SBosco · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:45 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

You always should get a alignment done once a year,saves alot in the long run to get one every year.Also helps find bad parts like bearings and tie rod ends early before failure along with greatly increasing tire life.

Try and find a place that does lifetime alignments like Firestone,my lifetime warranty has paid for itself well over 100 times,paid $130 for the 1st one and the last 40 or so alignments have been 100% free.

More than 40 alignments on the same car!?!?! IMHO that seems quite excessive. But I guess it would be speculation because I really don't have much off-road vehicle experience...mostly with on-road performance vehicles and boring run of the mill street cars.

WelshCherokeeCRD wrote:

I feel I should add that if you have excessive wear on the inside edge and the rest of the tire is even across the tread that is caused by toe, which is also affected by sag.

Also, the direction our tires go when the vehicle is lifted is negative camber...when the springs sag that causes the tire to go more positive. It's toe causing your wear

I feel like I finally contributed something and I'm not sure if it hurts :dizzy:

I didn't note whether or not the wear was even across the middle and outside edge of the tire...I'll have to take a look. I can recall one particular occasion in the winter when I was messing around in the snow and drifted into a curb with my driver front tire. I didn't think it was hard enough of a jolt to cause any misalignment (only around 5 mph or so, and at an angle) but, from what I'm learning here, it doesn't take much. So that could be a possible reason for some Toe-in....I'll have to try and measure to see if that's the case.

In my experience, every time you lower a vehicle you get negative camber and usually have to adjust it back to neutral camber with a camber adjustment kit. Is there something that I am not understanding about KJ front suspensions?

Sorry to be questioning people's statements...I'm just trying to gain a thorough understanding. Thanks again for all the help, information, and advice. :BANANA:

TJ2 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:38 pm

The above pics show camber as I was taught. I bought an '05 and got inside tire wear after a few k miles. Alignment guy said it was caster??? Fifty bucks almost any time for an alignment is much cheaper than new rubber. Anyone any good will also check for worn parts on the front end.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:55 pm

When you lift a KJ a ton of positive camber results. It looks comical. Positive is where the top of the tires are leaning out.

If you throw in excessive toe with a little too much camber, it causes rapid wear. More so than just camber by itself. I would get your alignment checked.

SBosco · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Yeah, initially I thought it was a definitive negative camber as a result of spring sag...but now I'm aware that it could also be a toe issue. Either way I am going to have an alignment done, I was just curious to know where the problem could have stemmed from. And in the future, what specifically I can do to avoid recurrences.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:01 pm

SBosco wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

You always should get a alignment done once a year,saves alot in the long run to get one every year.Also helps find bad parts like bearings and tie rod ends early before failure along with greatly increasing tire life.

Try and find a place that does lifetime alignments like Firestone,my lifetime warranty has paid for itself well over 100 times,paid $130 for the 1st one and the last 40 or so alignments have been 100% free.

More than 40 alignments on the same car!?!?! IMHO that seems quite excessive. But I guess it would be speculation because I really don't have much off-road vehicle experience...mostly with on-road performance vehicles and boring run of the mill street cars.

Yep,I like my tires to last.Funny thing is I now get paid to do my own alignments as no one else wants to try.I actually looked up my history and it's actually is 43 alignments since July of '06 and does not include the many before '06.

SBosco · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:19 pm

Haha, they pay you to do your own alignments?...that's hilarious :-)r

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:46 pm

SBosco wrote:

Haha, they pay you to do your own alignments?...that's hilarious :-)r

Yep since I know work at the store that I bought my lifetime alignmnet from now,I bought the alignmnet way back in July of '06 and started working at the same shop in October of '08.Funny thing is I go the Discount tires for my lifetime balance and rotate on my tires that I bought there before working at the other shop,they look at me funny when I show up in my work uniform for a competing shop but with each of my wheel/tire combo weighing in at about 110lbs each they can do the heavy lifting plus it was free with my tire purchase since I still was in the military when I bought them.

WelshCherokeeCRD · **Joined:** Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:57 am **Posts:** 68

SBosco wrote:

In my experience, every time you lower a vehicle you get negative camber and usually have to adjust it back to neutral camber with a camber adjustment kit. Is there something that I am not understanding about KJ front suspensions?

Sorry to be questioning people's statements...I'm just trying to gain a thorough understanding. Thanks again for all the help, information, and advice. :BANANA:

Not always. Some automobiles have a positive camber curve (where compression, like lowering, causes more positive camber; this is the KJ) and some have a negative camber curve (where compression causes more negative camber, like most cars with a strut front end)
The KJ has cam bolts on the lower control arms so it can be adjusted. I myself have never performed an alignment aside from using that DIY home kit with my TR7 and that turned a disaster. You don't want to try to do an alignment yourself unless you've the correct equipment.

CATCRD wrote:

When you lift a KJ a ton of positive camber results. It looks comical. Positive is where the top of the tires are leaning out.

Sorry mate but you've it backwards.

Go jack up your Jeep. you can eyeball how much it's going negative.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:18 pm

WelshCherokeeCRD wrote:

CATCRD wrote:

When you lift a KJ a ton of positive camber results. It looks comical. Positive is where the top of the tires are leaning out.

Sorry mate but you've it backwards.

Go jack up your Jeep. you can eyeball how much it's going negative.

Actually you got it backwards,when you lift a IFS you will get tons of postive camber,lowering it will give you negitive camber,that is before a alignment.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:37 pm

Yep, it goes positive. I lifted my KJ and a buddy's, and in both cases, the top of the tires are leaned freakishly outward until you get an alignment.

SBosco · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:06 am

WelshCherokeeCRD wrote:

The KJ has cam bolts on the lower control arms so it can be adjusted. I myself have never performed an alignment aside from using that DIY home kit with my TR7 and that turned a disaster. You don't want to try to do an alignment yourself unless you've the correct equipment.

I have done an alignment myself on a 4wd '96 Dodge Dakota with 90k miles on a photo-digital alignment lift with clamp-on optical sensors. I found that the torsion springs for the front suspension had sagged over about 7 years, effectively lowering the front of the vehicle 1.5 - 2 inches. It was an easy fix though, just crank on the adjustment bolts and was back to OE ride height...gotta love torsion bars/rods/springs :lol:

That was the easiest truck I have ever worked on...they don't make 'em like that anymore

Everything was simple, standard, and easily accessible.

I wouldn't even think of doing an alignment without the proper facilities though...small changes can mean big driving/performance differences.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:36 am

Pos or neg camber when changing suspension height depends on difference in upper and lower control arm lengths. Toe in or out when changing suspension height is dependent on if the tie rod ends are in front or behind the spindles. Another common issue is the ball joints or tie rod ends going out. Check for play in those. I was getting a bit of wear on the outside edge of my passenger tire and found the right hand tie rod end had play in it. Make sure your recall on the ball joints has been completed. There was a recall from jeep for the diesels to install heavy duty ball joints.

- Mark

WelshCherokeeCRD · **Joined:** Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:57 am **Posts:** 68

tjkj2002 wrote:

WelshCherokeeCRD wrote:

CATCRD wrote:

When you lift a KJ a ton of positive camber results. It looks comical. Positive is where the top of the tires are leaning out.

Sorry mate but you've it backwards.

Go jack up your Jeep. you can eyeball how much it's going negative.

Actually you got it backwards,when you lift a IFS you will get tons of postive camber,lowering it will give you negitive camber,that is before a alignment.

Mate, even if that were the case with the KJ, it's not always the case with an independent suspension.

It depends on the geometry; length of the upper arm vs the length of the lower arm, etc.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:13 am

kapalczynski wrote:

There was a recall from jeep for the diesels to install heavy duty ball joints.

- Mark

No seperate recall on CRD's for LBJ's,be it a CRD or a 2wd 2.4 I4 gasser KJ they all use the same LBJ's.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:19 am

WelshCherokeeCRD wrote:

Mate, even if that were the case with the KJ, it's not always the case with an independent suspension.

It depends on the geometry; length of the upper arm vs the length of the lower arm, etc.

No and sometimes.

A IFS with coilovers type of shock what I said always holds true unless you add aftermarket arms.It does not hold entirely true until a certain amount of lift or being lowered a certain amount with a strut type of IFS(sometimes) which is not found on a KJ.

I replace struts all the time at work on vehicles like Honda Pilots and Nissian Altima's and it does change the the camber to positive all the time by just adding new struts,no lift or lowering.

Cause for negative front camber? Please help diagnose

Who is online