Question about diesel SUV's, reposted from other 4x4.

buddy357 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:18 am

I originally posted this in other 4x4 section and another member recommended I post it here in the CRD section. I am not trying to start a brand war and didn’t want to violate any posting rules. So, the following is basically 3 or 4 posts kind of merged together for simplicity’s sake.

As the result of a long drawn out divorce, I now have 2 vehicles and have had them both less than a year. One is a 03 Excursion 4x4 6.0L (mine) (150k miles)and a 06 Liberty Sport CRD 4x4 (90k miles)(was hers, I got stuck with it after the divorce cause she didn't want to make the payments when we just bought the dang thing). As a single guy, I can’t justify keeping both, so one of them has to go. I am trying to decide which would be best to keep as a daily driver/BOV. I am willing and able to do a decent amount of work on my own. I always seem to be fiddling around with my vehicles. I do most of my own repairs and maintenance, but some of the bigger things I leave to the pro's.

I love the Excursion on the Highway, it has space galore. When I moved, with the 3rd seat out and 2nd folded I put a washer/dryers and chest of drawers in the back with room to spare. It has seating for 8 and tows up to 11k lbs, but the turn radius is rough in tight spots, just like the F250 w 7.3L it replaced. The excursion is part time 4x4, so no go using it on the road. The Excursion has a 6.0L, with the risk of EGR cooler and head gasket failure. And it is complex enough to keep me busy with fixing little things all the time. The AC quit working, no power to it at all. Then I found out if that happens and it's not a fuse I should try to cycle the Headlight switch 3 times in a row to try to make it come back on. What kind of quirk is that and what book do I find that info in? So far I have spent 2400 on IPR, IAT2, EGR, brake sensor, and some other stuff. And it will cost me at least 3-4k in parts and then labor(if I cant do it all) to make it anywhere near reliable (head gaskets/ studs/Bulletproof EGR repair/oil cooler/ gauges and I still need to replace the shocks/springs and the ball joints barely passed inspection). It also has mediocre takeoff/power compared to the F250, so I want to upgrade exhaust and get an SCT if I keep it. So am I really considering spending up to 10k on a truck I paid 15k for just to have it as reliable and powerful as the 7.3L F250 I used to have?

The Liberty CRD is smaller than I am used to, but is all I really need for me so down-sizing to the Liberty is appealing. The turn radius is good and ease of parking is nice. Highway handling is squirrelly, probably because of the Goodyear Wranglers. I know that supposedly the Liberty in general has a horrible reliability record . A bigger concern is the rust I found on the undercarriage and finding affordable parts, or even to find a knowledgeable mechanic willing to work on the engine(I am too chicken to do the timing belt in 20k miles). I am having issues w leg/ hip pain after driving the jeep for longer than an hour, so the drivers seat needs changing and it needs a dvd player for my son. My mom is 84 and doesn’t like to ride in the jeep, she says it is too small and unsafe, but it’s easier for her to get into it. I have done the ORM and EHM mods and the mileage got about 2mpg better. If I keep it it has a GDE hot tune and a tcm tune in it's future.

And I have actually begun to like having the little Jeep as it feels like a little sports car compared to my Excursion and it is small enough to take on smaller trails/roads than before. I am still concerned about the rust I found under the jeep on the subframe and underbody, but think maybe por15 could help w that. And during the rediculous amount of rain recently I liked being able to put the Jeep in full-time 4x4 and going on, albeit more slowly. I don't like the way water stays on the outer edge of the drivers side of the windshield during heavy rain though.

I used to feel that the Excursion was safer but lately I have seen the results of real-world rollovers, statistics, and the testing done. It looks like maybe the Ex isnt as much safer as I thought, but my f250 had a tree fall on it and it dented the roof. I think it would have collapsed the Ex roof.

The mileage advantage of the jeep, has been slow showing. I originally got between 17.1/21 city/hwy in the jeep hand calculated after finding using GPS that the speedometer in the jeep was showing almost 7% higher than actual speed. My ex used to get 21/25mpg (city/hwy) on a pretty regular basis in the liberty. And I kept seeing folks getting 28-30 using a GDE tune. I was actually hoping for the same mileage as the ex. The last month or so, I have driving the jeep in the city only and been more careful not to drive it like I do the Excursion and have been getting 20.3 mpg city. I normally would do almost a 50/50 mix city/hwy driving which kept my average about 16 mpg in the Excursion and around 19-20 in the Jeep. If I can raise it to 23-24 I would definitely keep the jeep.

I get between 13.9 (city) and 18.7(hwy/no AC on a long trip) in the Ex, also hand calculated and GPS verified that the speedo is within 1%. I tend to mix city/highway 5/50, then every other weekend (visitation with my 3 yr old) I put about 700 miles on whatever I am driving. Best I can figure, that’s maybe 600 a yr saved with the jeep on fuel (20K miles a year @ $3 gallon), but I am not sure that makes enough difference with the trade-offs to be worthwhile.

I don’t really wheel offroad, but I do drive on a lot of dirt/fire roads and hunt/camp. Hoping to get a small camper (maybe something like a forest river surveyor or an Rpod to keep it small) soon to start getting my son involved also. I figured I can use it for camping in the Blue Ridge and at Lake Gaston, visiting friends/family and going to shooting competitions and not have to get a room. And it would be nice to keep pre-staged in case of a weather related or regional bugout.

And as the economy is big for everyone right now, I can afford to drive either SUV, but would prefer not to keep up both. So I am going to get rid of one of them. I like the Excursion and the jeep, my mom and 3 yr old don't like the jeep and it is smaller than I am used to. So I have been waffling for 3 months as to which to keep. The jeep was supposed to get 26ish mpg and didn't for me, but it is better than before. While I am not strapped for cash, if I get rid of the either of them it does free up about 400-500 a month (payment, insurance and upkeep)for other things. Unfortunately, neither is paid for. I wish I hadn't gotten rid of the F250 or that I had found a 7.3L Excursion. I got tired of looking and took a decent deal on the one I have. So I am in the middle of a wants vs needs evaluation and trying to think ahead
about the best choice.
I have posted the same question on a couple of full-size diesel boards and a prepper board. And it has been almost 2 to 1 to keep the Excursion. I was leery of posting the question here because of the worry about jeep fanboys (I have dealt with them before over a XJ I had in 2001). And one of the guys recommending keep it on the prepper board was saying only"keep it, its a jeep". But I have the fullsize fanboys at the other sites, so I had to deal with it anyway.

I realize no one can tell me what to do, but I am looking for suggestions especially seeing as how a few of you here have a lot of experience with the CRD libby and some have downsized from a fullsize diesel truck. I am not far enough into owning either to just trade in both and get something else. I am not considering buying another vehicle, only which of these 2 to keep. I need to keep a backseat, 4 doors, 4x4, and I am a bit of a diesel nut. If Jeep sold a diesel Rubicon Unlimited JK in the US, I would change my mind in a heartbeat and get rid of both at a loss.

Thanks for the help, this forum has helped me a lot already with the Liberty.

Excursion

39254_1430395651145_1570483779_31037983_1663398_n by buddy357, on Flickr

Jeep

32566_1375637202218_1570483779_30900731_8181995_n by buddy357, on Flickr

CIMARRON13 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:12 am

I originally wanted an Excursion when I got rid of my Rubicon. I wanted to switch to a diesel 4x4 SUV so I could have both my vehicles using the same fuel. Other car is a Jetta TDI. It was hard to find an Excursion with low miles that wasn't over 20K. Chose the CRD because of price, mileage, and I have owned Jeeps my whole life. So far I enjoy it. Although sleeping in back of an Excursion would be nice while camping, which I do a lot, but I just put the tent up like I always have in the past.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:55 am

buddy357, that is a hard decision to make, I was going to say keep the Excursion till I read all of its problems. I would keep the Jeep, but you are complaining of a comfort factor? Why not just sell them both and get an old diesel, the 2007 and up ones are kind of useless with all the garbage that has been added on for emissions, Or trade them both in for a New Cummins and get a DPF eliminator kit. http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/muffl ... e-pipe.htm

Sounds like a hard decision, best made by you and you gut feeling.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:25 am

Your sport is the same color as my Limited so keep the CRD :jester:

First get rid of the Bad Year tires they are awfull and replace them with "BFG Long Trail T/A sport tour" It will handle totally different. It sounds like your driving is like mine with mostly on road. They are quiet and sure footed.

The seats are as soft as a rock in the Liberty as you know so your leg and hip problems will remain. Take brakes often on long trips.

We tow our 3000-3500 pound camper and with the GDE "eco full torque tune and Euro TC and it's a fantatic tow vehicle for trailers in this range. With these improvements towing mileage actaully went up 1.5 to 2 mpg to the 18.5 to 20 mpg range. Most of my driving is around town short trips and I've been getting 22-24 and I like my new found power :-)r

Down side. Both of your vehicles are high mileage.
I also prefer the XJ as I own a 2000 Classic in perfect condition.
You indicate you no longer need the room the Excursion has so why drive a boat around and I'm guessing you could get more $$ from it then the CRD. Neither are going to be cheap to maintain but the Excursion sounds much more expensive :ALONE:

It also seems the sharp decline of the CRD's value has stopped and could possibly go up if not staying where it's at now.
So drive the CRD for a few years and get your finances in order :JEEPIN:

My two cents :SOMBRERO:

jinstall · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:03 am

My suggestion is to sell both and find yourself a Grand Cherokee CRD. 2500 in the Libby will make a world of difference in the issues you have with it and make a pretty cool looking 4x4 if you want that. What it sounds like is you need more space than the Libby allows and the Ford is too much of a money pit. Split the differenc, sell both and buy a GC CRD as it should suit the needs of both vehicles and give you what both are lacking.

buddy357 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:08 pm

When things went the way they did I was originally determined to keep the Excursion and sell the jeep. I have had a full-size truck for years. But a friend going through the same type (town car vs diesel Jetta) thing suggested giving the jeep a chance as I drive a lot and no longer have a family to carry around and the Ex was half empty when they were in it. And he said the CRD might surprise me. So far it has. And it has been enough when I had my son. And I don't have to worry bout keeping up with the joneses or the wife's wants vs needs anymore.
I did look at an online cost to own calculator and it said the Ex would cost me 22k more to keep over 5 years.. That is a lot. And I am thinking I might have to take a loss on the whichever I get rid of to get it done. I just need to get rid of one. I hit high year tenure for my current job in 2 years and who knows what the job market will be like in the future. So it looks like right now my best bet is the Jeep.
I would like one of the CRD GC's, but just in case of job instability I can pay off either of these before I get out.
The liberty seat is firm, but the EX seats are too soft for me, even more than the F250 was. The drivers seat sits to high at the front of the seat cushion, or is it too low at the back. I am gonna look for an electric adjustable seat maybe I can use. I swapped out the capt chairs in the back of the ex for a bench for my ex to sit next to my little guy. Was pretty easy compared to some of what I have done to some of my cars.

dkenny · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:12 pm

Quote:

The Liberty CRD is smaller than I am used to, but is all I really need for me so down-sizing to the Liberty is appealing. The turn radius is good and ease of parking is nice. Highway handling is squirrelly, probably because of the Goodyear Wranglers. I know that supposedly the Liberty in general has a horrible reliability record

are you sure its the Libby at atfault?? please here me out...I normal truck is a 99 dodge ram 2500 diesel. sure it has looser steering than my 2000 ram 1500 gasser..but neither are as tight as my wifes '06 liberty. by FAR!!!. I have owned the 2000 since new. I almost have problems driving the Libby because it so crisp in steering..try driving a old school bus all the time..the libby is like a sports car!

my thought be to ditch the ford 6.0L and keep the libby

thing to mod on the libby...
lift pump
EGR bypass..SEGR or GDE tune.

-dkenny

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:45 pm

I have an '01 7.3 4WD PSD Ex. I keep it just to tow a 20' racecar trailer. When ULSD gets back to being closer to $5 a gallon, you'll wish you had kept the Jeep. If you replicate the mods I and others have done (see sig below) you should get OVER 30 MPG in mixed driving and be able to tow up to 5K lbs without strain. Also, the 6.0 has a max service life of 150K. The 6.0 problems you are aware of are not a matter of "if", just "when".

If you are willing to do a lot of your own work and take advantage of the massive knowledge base/support available here, the Jeep CRD won't put you in the poorhouse.

DOC

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:58 pm

Unload the Excursion, there has to be someone with money and lots of rug rats.
Then do the mods to your CRD, lots of choices.
Before I had the CRD I had a Jetta Turbo Diesel (pre TDI) and a 1 ton Chevy Turbo Diesel pick up.
My CRD is better than both.
One problem I heard about the GC with the 3.0L MB engine is that it revs higher than the CRD.
Same engine in the MB SUVs revs much lower. MB stuck Jeep with their outdated trans.
When I drove a gasser GC I could not see the stop lights very well like I do in my CRD.
Another thing I don't like about the MB 3.0L is the aluminum cylinder walls, I just don't trust them, sorry.
Maybe when they wear out, the cylinders can be resleeved (not MB approved) and the engine could live long and prosper as long as you don't try to crank out too much with a tune.
If you find another Hunny, she may have rug rats or want to generate some with you, worry about that when it happens.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:21 pm

I'll add

The biggest problem from day one had been a lack of techs trained to work on the CRD - the maintenance guys at Jeep in 05 got a 1 hour video and that included all the model year changes including the diesel. After that - nothing. so you do have to be prepared to either work on it or spend some time training someone else - best bet is to find a dealership that services Cummins/Sprinter - at least they understand diesels.

Then - as Jinstall suggested $2500 worth of mods and the CRD should be solid reliable and fun

(Oh yeah - and it can do SteelBender at Moab too - there's normally a run every April)

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

I would have unloaded them both and picked up a Grand Cherokee CRD (07 or 08 model). My lucky wife drives one and it very refined with good road manners and is rated to tow 7400 lbs. Oh, did I mention none of our friends knew it was a diesel until we told them...its quiet.

Question about diesel SUV's, reposted from other 4x4.

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