LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?

Pretty scary. What would it cost, worst case-dealer doing the work, to have them all replaced; parts and labor?

..somehow managed to get the piece out. Lucky day for him

Warp.

It's time to get off the anti GDE soap box :wink:

Chrysler has been flashing for "glow plug reliability" since at least back in 06 long before GDE.
See this thread from 06
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8517

TSB's 18-008-06 and 18-009-06 were replaced by 18-023-06 that lists
Improved glow plug operation and durability among other "improvments" :5SHOTS:

It is dated July 14, 2006 I have a paper copy and will send you a pdf of it if you want.

I'm not saying over advancing the timing will not cause glow plug problems just that Chrysler has recognized there were problems with them almost from the git go :jester:

On replacement procedures, on the old 6.9 Fords, we have a lot of trouble with people using aftermarket glow plugs that swell and die, then break off or crumble during removal. This can make a simple, relatively cheap shade tree mechanic job a whole lot more complicated. The best way to insure that there isn't anywhere for pieces to go is make sure the piston is tdc before removing the plug, then just shop vac out any pieces that fall in. saves you the risk of pulling the head if it falls down into the cylinder bore.
I know this doesn't address the op, but I thought it relates.

Obviously, if it breaks before removal...

Quote:

Wouldn't you have to remove the injector for a shop vac to pull out the pieces?

You just put the shop vac on the empty glow plug hole after removing the glow plug and only if part of the glow plug breaks off as it is removed. Odds are the plug will just come right out with no problems, I was just recommending the tdc procedure as a precautionary measure. Again it is a bigger deal on the 6.9's because the plugs are often swollen so much that they break as you twist and coerce them from the hole. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

The GDE tunes have no effect on glow plug life, contrary to some opinions on this thread. In older engine designs equipped with standard (10 second warm-up) glow plugs, one injector spray hole is typically lined up with the glow plug to provide direct fueling on the plug. Back in the day, advancing timing with this design allows the fuel to have an overcooling effect on the plug in certain situations. The vast majority of new diesels have ceramic or fast metallic glow plugs (2 second warm-up). With these new style plugs the plug protrusion and position into the combustion chamber are designed to split two injector holes so the plug is centered between and fuel is not sprayed directly on the plug (this is the KJ design). With this design the injection timing has no effect on glow plug life. The cause for glow plug failures on the KJ is due to overvoltage and a corresponding overtemp of the glow plug. There is actually not enough cooling from fuel spray. Most new engines went away from spraying fuel directly on the glow plug due to the increased soot emissions caused when the glow plugs are not active.

Author:	Squeeto [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
The recent thread (won't name names) explaining the damage caused by fracturing ceramic glow plugs and the cost to repair gave me the chills. Fortunately, the bill went to the manufacturer but, I know, I won't be so lucky. Anyone with any good ideas? - replace old with new ceramic - replace with similar voltage/burn-time metal - replace with metal and flash the ecu - park the CRD and drive the "Tercel" until the smoke clears

Author:	reka12 [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Pretty scary. What would it cost, worst case-dealer doing the work, to have them all replaced; parts and labor?

Author:	irollgen4s [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
I know my dad cracked a corner off a glow plug and had it drop into a TDC piston inside the cylinder. He uses one of those long thing microscopes to peek in through the injector hole, and then some sort of grabbing mechanism through another hole and somehow managed to get the piece out. Lucky day for him

Author:	Squeeto [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
reka12 wrote: Pretty scary. What would it cost, worst case-dealer doing the work, to have them all replaced; parts and labor? Not sure that the ceramic glow plugs are available to the dealer anymore. There was previous suggestion that they are being phased out because of the damage they can cause. But I am not sure if the dealer has the flash or new plugs yet anyway. Maybe that is why everyone is waiting? I am out of the loop on this. irollgen4s wrote: ..somehow managed to get the piece out. Lucky day for him True. But I worry about the damage it does before you get it out.

Author:	UFO [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
This doesn't seem to be the issue it was on Volkswagen diesels. Are people really seeing a significant failure rate on the ceramic plugs? The ceramics sure are a nice fast glow cycle.

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Author:	dejeepdezel [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
I also have an'05 VW Tdi .The ceramic glow plugs were replaced last year under a recall with metal ones.You HAVE to reprogram the glow plug cycle for lower voltage for them or the burn out quickly.

Author:	irollgen4s [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Well As soon as it happened he knew that it was inside the cylinder. The car didnt' start or move until he got the piece out.

Author:	warp2diesel [ Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Timing control on a Common Rail is more precise than on a VW PD (Unit Injector). In Theory that may be why the VW PD TDIs trashed out a lot of glow plugs. I went with the InMotion Stage 2 over the GDE Hot Tune because when I was younger I played around with timing and trashed Glow Plugs when I got the timing too advanced to get more fuel economy. When I started to use a SnapOn Lumi Probe (optical) I quit trashing glow plugs and had the max power when I found the sweet spot. Cummins and Pre-Duramax GM forums are full of info backing up my experience of trashing glow plugs from having too much timing advance,. It is a well stated fact that the GDE Hot tune has some more timing advance to get more fuel economy than the InMotion Stage 2 does. For me I want the safety margin. The Metal Glow Plugs may be the best option for a GDE Hot Tune, don't know for sure, just my speculation. I will not be surprised if GDE comes up with a flash for their tune to make the metal tip glow plugs work.

Author:	Joe Romas [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Warp. It's time to get off the anti GDE soap box Chrysler has been flashing for "glow plug reliability" since at least back in 06 long before GDE. See this thread from 06 viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8517 TSB's 18-008-06 and 18-009-06 were replaced by 18-023-06 that lists Improved glow plug operation and durability among other "improvments" It is dated July 14, 2006 I have a paper copy and will send you a pdf of it if you want. I'm not saying over advancing the timing will not cause glow plug problems just that Chrysler has recognized there were problems with them almost from the git go

Author:	warp2diesel [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Joe Romas wrote: Warp. It's time to get off the anti GDE soap box Chrysler has been flashing for "glow plug reliability" since at least back in 06 long before GDE. See this thread from 06 viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8517 TSB's 18-008-06 and 18-009-06 were replaced by 18-023-06 that lists Improved glow plug operation and durability among other "improvments" It is dated July 14, 2006 I have a paper copy and will send you a pdf of it if you want. I'm not saying over advancing the timing will not cause glow plug problems just that Chrysler has recognized there were problems with them almost from the git go Joe, the glow plug flashes happened years ago. As long as the last glow plug flash was done to correct the problem, subsequent glow plug problems must be due to other causes. Since I have first hand experience with the side effect of jacking timing ahead too much on diesel engines of various configurations, I bring it up. There are other possible causes like crappy Cetaine, humidity, altitude, and more. I have no interest in getting involved beyond sharing my experience, but if I had a Court Summons handed to me and required to produce hard evidence, I would pull my Lumi-Prob out of my tool box, make an optical probe and compare the the actual timing based upon when the burning started. Of Course, the Lawyer would be handed a very stiff bill (even stiffer than a dyno lab would charge ) for my services, I won't work for free. Even if the Lawyers wanted my thoughts beyond my posts, I would stick it to them , my nature. It would be cheaper to become a LOST member and read.

Author:	jdorris [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
On replacement procedures, on the old 6.9 Fords, we have a lot of trouble with people using aftermarket glow plugs that swell and die, then break off or crumble during removal. This can make a simple, relatively cheap shade tree mechanic job a whole lot more complicated. The best way to insure that there isn't anywhere for pieces to go is make sure the piston is tdc before removing the plug, then just shop vac out any pieces that fall in. saves you the risk of pulling the head if it falls down into the cylinder bore. I know this doesn't address the op, but I thought it relates. Obviously, if it breaks before removal...

Author:	UFO [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
jdorris wrote: On replacement procedures, on the old 6.9 Fords, we have a lot of trouble with people using aftermarket glow plugs that swell and die, then break off or crumble during removal. This can make a simple, relatively cheap shade tree mechanic job a whole lot more complicated. The best way to insure that there isn't anywhere for pieces to go is make sure the piston is tdc before removing the plug, then just shop vac out any pieces that fall in. saves you the risk of pulling the head if it falls down into the cylinder bore. I know this doesn't address the op, but I thought it relates. Obviously, if it breaks before removal... Wouldn't you have to remove the injector for a shop vac to pull out the pieces?

Author:	kdlewis1975 [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
It was explained to me once from a reputable source that the routine that operates the glow plugs came from Bosch. It apparently wasn't something Chrysler put time into. I don't know if the subsequent flashes was a Chrysler develolpment or a updated code from Bosch. The root of the problem is that the time/temp profile wasn't adjusted appropriately for ambient temperature. During the summer, they were staying on too long or set to get too hot. It was pointed out to me that most of the failure folks experience are during the summer months. We know that the light stays on for 2 seconds or less, but glowplugs continue to burn for several seconds or minutes beyond that. Generally when I start my Jeep, it's to drive it some distance. If I'm simply moving it to somewhere else in the driveway, I try to let it run for at a few minutes. Warp may have a point in regards to advancing the the timing of injection and glowplug failure. Also keep in mind that the GDE guys develop their tunes with maximim efficiency/performance in mind relative to the design limits of the engine. Numerous people have glowplug failures without a tune, so we have to mindful before stating cause/effect. Changing to the metals ones is no simple matter...GDE explained this while back. It obviously requies the new glowplugs, but also requires a new glowplug controller as well as an updated ECU flash. The last I heard, the glowplug routine is being worked on...now if that is a program for both the ECU and controller or just the ECU itself, I don't know.

Author:	GreenDieselEngineering [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
The GDE tunes have no effect on glow plug life, contrary to some opinions on this thread. In older engine designs equipped with standard (10 second warm-up) glow plugs, one injector spray hole is typically lined up with the glow plug to provide direct fueling on the plug. Back in the day, advancing timing with this design allows the fuel to have an overcooling effect on the plug in certain situations. The vast majority of new diesels have ceramic or fast metallic glow plugs (2 second warm-up). With these new style plugs the plug protrusion and position into the combustion chamber are designed to split two injector holes so the plug is centered between and fuel is not sprayed directly on the plug (this is the KJ design). With this design the injection timing has no effect on glow plug life. The cause for glow plug failures on the KJ is due to overvoltage and a corresponding overtemp of the glow plug. There is actually not enough cooling from fuel spray. Most new engines went away from spraying fuel directly on the glow plug due to the increased soot emissions caused when the glow plugs are not active.

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Author:	jdorris [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
[/quote] Wouldn't you have to remove the injector for a shop vac to pull out the pieces?[/quote] You just put the shop vac on the empty glow plug hole after removing the glow plug and only if part of the glow plug breaks off as it is removed. Odds are the plug will just come right out with no problems, I was just recommending the tdc procedure as a precautionary measure. Again it is a bigger deal on the 6.9's because the plugs are often swollen so much that they break as you twist and coerce them from the hole. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Author:	UFO [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
jdorris wrote: Quote: Wouldn't you have to remove the injector for a shop vac to pull out the pieces? You just put the shop vac on the empty glow plug hole after removing the glow plug and only if part of the glow plug breaks off as it is removed. Odds are the plug will just come right out with no problems, I was just recommending the tdc procedure as a precautionary measure. Again it is a bigger deal on the 6.9's because the plugs are often swollen so much that they break as you twist and coerce them from the hole. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I only brought this up because you won't get any airflow out of the glow plug hole without airflow in, and it's difficult to get flow in and out of the same hole. But if you are not on TDC, then you have flow in through the valves.

Author:	jdorris [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Yup I agree. But, with a decent vac and a crevice tool it will pull out the debris. I have done it, granted, not on this motor, but the situation is similar. Sorry if I have derailed the topic.

Author:	warp2diesel [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
GreenDieselEngineering wrote: The GDE tunes have no effect on glow plug life, contrary to some opinions on this thread. In older engine designs equipped with standard (10 second warm-up) glow plugs, one injector spray hole is typically lined up with the glow plug to provide direct fueling on the plug. Back in the day, advancing timing with this design allows the fuel to have an overcooling effect on the plug in certain situations. The vast majority of new diesels have ceramic or fast metallic glow plugs (2 second warm-up). With these new style plugs the plug protrusion and position into the combustion chamber are designed to split two injector holes so the plug is centered between and fuel is not sprayed directly on the plug (this is the KJ design). With this design the injection timing has no effect on glow plug life. The cause for glow plug failures on the KJ is due to overvoltage and a corresponding overtemp of the glow plug. There is actually not enough cooling from fuel spray. Most new engines went away from spraying fuel directly on the glow plug due to the increased soot emissions caused when the glow plugs are not active. What is stated above is an opinion that I do not agree with. I am not going to throw away my own experience and the findings of others on Dodge Cummins and GMC 6.2L, 6.5L, 6.5L turbo forums, and Cummins regarding injection timing and glow plug life.

Author:	CATCRD [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Noted

Author:	MrMopar64 [ Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it time to exchange ceramic for metal glow plugs?
Just as a point of contention, it's not fair to include the Cummins in your comparison since there hasn't been a 5.9L in a Dodge product with glow plugs. However, the statement regarding injection timing and glow plug health is correct: the two aren't related in the same way as the diesels of old. I have seen before bad results from "improper" timing, but that was from timing that was >40°BTDC , and even then that advance is completely possible if the spray angle of the injector is able to spray into the bowl and not the cylinder walls at that advance.