There words

With the Dana rearends its not as critical as with the Ford 9 inch, but we still recommend 85-140 non-synthetics. The 9 inch has more tooth contact and a steeper angle on the engagement between the ring and pinion which doesn’t seem to get the necessary lubrication from synthetics. Another problem we’ve seen is that the synthetic oil doesn’t absorb the heat from the bearings/gears/etc. It sounds good on paper, when you see the ‘oil’ is running cooler, but what that isn’t telling you is that the bearing is retaining all that temperature. The oil is a big part of dissipating all of that heat and the synthetics just don’t seem to do as well in gear applications.

But in theory...if a synthetic provides better lubricity, less heat will be generated, and there will therefore be less heat to absorb and carry away. If one is going to do the experiment, it needs to be done correctly. Simply measuring the temperature of the oil isn't enough. The actual temperature of the gear surfaces need to be known as well. If they had data that said the differential temperature between the oil and gears was greater in the case of synthetic versus that of conventional, then they would have an argument. This is like solving for four vairables using only three equations.

I can't necessarily dispute what they have for observations in terms of wear. However, this is the type of reasoning that leads to faulty conclusions. And even worse, it leads to others apply this "knowledge" to areas where it doesn't make sense and then propogate urban legends.

Personally, I don't care whether people use conventional or synthetic. What I do care about is whether compelling information is provided to really discern a clear reason over why to choose one of the other. Though the axle builders provide good insight for what they "see," people have a tendency to bias data based on their personal opinion. Now if someone were to provide statistical data from a large sample set that included: axle type, maker, typical application (towing, offroading, daily driver, etc.), conventional or synthetic, frequency of changes, etc., then this would be more along the lines of something from which a viable conclusion can be drawn. And really, all it would take is them interviewing that customer before they rebuild their diff. Now if the data illustrated a conclusion like: 80% of the diffs we had a rebuild of this type ran synthetic and were from daily drivers, I'd be convinced. But if the data says something like: 52% of the diffs we rebuilt are from towing applications and used synthetic, I'd be compelled to call that a wash.

I'll still be running synthetics for the time being until that "scientific" paper pops up to convince me otherwise. The term "scientific" doesn't mean it was a study steeped in theory and full of equations and hypotheses that can't be tested/proven. It means a rigorous method of experimenting, recording and analysing data were followed so that biases are not introduced in the conclusions...and yes, these types of scientific papers apply to the real world.

Curries response is your "scientific" paper,they make the axles and know what works and what does not and that is "real world" experiance.They've been doing this for more years then you've most likely been around.


Oh and for some time they have been making brand new as the source for good 9" and other axles have disapeared.There RockJock60 series has exploded in popularity and that is 100% new diff that they designed and only works with dino gear oil as it is a high pinion diff.

Expert opinion - Yes
Scientific - No

If I was running Currie axles - I'd go with their recommendation.
But there's a difference between accepting their experience and accepting their reasoning.

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

A "expert opinion" is scientific,ask any scientist as most of there "facts" are there best guess anyways to start then 500 years later someone smarter proves there "facts".

Nope

science has to have data - opinions don't count.

you can get 'experts' on both sides of any argument

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

They have data to back up there claims.

Good to know that they have data. Where is this published so that other experts can see and evaluate it? This is the thing about the peer review process, it drives one to draw the "correct" conclusions via consensus from other experts. And you are exactly correct, there are things learned later on that can completely change one's thinking based on the observations that have been made.

We've had a poster in the past that would state that Tesla proved Einsteins theories concerning Relativity to be incorrect. The problem is that Tesla stated that he did, but never actually wrote any of it down. It's a shame, because in this case, it's pretty much as if it never happened. No one got to learn from it.

If you read my initial post, I made the contingency that they could be absolutely right. However, they didn't make enough measurements. The temperature of the differential fluid is immaterial without knowing what the surface temperatures of the gear surfaces, bearings, axles, carriers, etc. The synthetic case may simply be cooler because the gears and bearings don't get as hot in the first place. This is a case of trying to draw a firm conclusion on insufficient data. Their wear may be in fact worse for the synthetic case, but the whole "poor heat transfer" theory likely doesn't provide an explanation. And if it isn't a heat transfer issue, then what is it?

Tesla's papers were confiscated by the US Government at the time of his death. All we have is an accumulation of his comments to go on. Ten years ago some scientists who quit treating the Theory of Relativity as a sacred religion, did some tests and exceeded light speed, others have proven the Gravometric Drive Tesla was working on was 100,000 time more efficient than what old Albert thought it could be. Now some of the Climatologists are questioning the Global Warming crap and punching hole in it almost as fast as the frauds who cooked it up are shredding their forged evidence. Again, Global Warming like Theory of Relativity is a pseudo-religion with those who let their opinions cloud the facts. Lets not fall into that trap with our lubrication discussion.

The Synthetic Vs Dino debate will need to be taken on a case by case basis. I have worked with industrial gear reducers (Gear Boxes) that work fine on Dino but not on Synthetic. Others can handle more torque with synthetic than they can on Dino. Gear finishes and bearing finishes have a lot to do with which works better. As a rule (but not cast into concrete) rougher finishes on gear teeth and bearings do better on Dino, and highly polished surfaces do better on Synthetic. Since Dino is a blend of many different lengths of molecular chains to make a correct viscosity, the long chains that border on asphalt fill up the big craters in the finish better and let the thinner chains slide over and the gears and bearings better and lubricate better. With a high polish, there are no craters to fill and the extra long chains that are almost like asphalt don't help, heat up more and in fact knock the smaller chains out of the way preventing them from doing their job. Synthetic has more uniform length of molecular chains and provide better lubrication with polished surfaces.
Since the manufacturer knows what gear and bearing finish they use, they will know which is better for their product.
Instead of understanding and explaining how Dino Vs Synthetic lubrication works and telling the truth, they bone up on talking points and hand the talking points over to the sales force to hock their wears and discredit their competition.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

deleted

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U.S. Army Retired

The quote attributed to me by flash is not mine, I have deleted the other portion. Flash, please learn how to use the forum correctly and proof read your posts. Einstein Theory of Relativity has a lot of flaws, I attacked two flaws. If you care to cite some areas that are not flawed, perhaps you should bring them up.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Sorry, I tried to compress the quotes so they wouldn't take up so much space.
I screwed it up somehow and cant seem to fix it.
I deleted that post.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

So should I be concerned if I changed both my diff's to synthetic?

Now I am not sure.

_________________
05 BLACK KJ - 42RLE & NP242
Skids, Hooks, Bent Rock Rail, Lifted, A/T's, etc.
NY and PA and Florida ONF Special Custom Organic Trail Rash

Albert,
I think the general consensus here is that as long as you follow the manufacturer's specifications
you should be ok.
But if for some reason you cant find synthetic gear oil, then conventional gear oil will work
just fine.

(Sorry, I know this is getting off-topic, but...)

Einstein's theories relating gravity,mass and energy are all valid for all objects and matter that has
mass. It is when you get into sub-atomic particles (i.e. quarks, neutrinos, etc.), particles with
very little or no mass that his theories break down. This is where quantum mechanics steps in.

Einstein, like all physicists before him, tried to bring order to the chaotic world that he observed.
IOW, he sought provable reasoning for the way objects (matter) interacted with each other
and the types of energies that allowed those interactions to occur.

Quantum Physics proves that chaos is the norm for our universe. And many quantum physicists
accept the fact that some interactions do in fact happen randomly for no reason. Likewise, in
Quantum Physics, anything that can happen will.

So it should be no surprise when particles with no mass are observed to be traveling
faster than the speed of light for a duration of nano-seconds before they disappear.
Gravity has no effect on particles of this size, therefore Einstein's theories break down.

This does not mean that Einstein's theories are invalid. All of Einstein's theories still apply to
massive objects.

Now this Gravimetric Drive you mention I have never even heard of. All references to it led
to science-fiction. I'm sure Tesla's theories are valid, but you are gonna have to educate
me on what it is and how it works.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

My son sent me the article about the Gravimetric Drive a few years ago. I suspect but have no proof that the Gravimetric Drive was what our US Government confiscated from Tesla's safe after he died. From what I remember of the article, Scientists put together the information from comments and lectures Tesla made and built a small GD engine that worked and generated 100,000 times more thrust than Einstein thought would be possible. Another Scientist worked on the Gravimetric Drive and died a mysterious death, again all of his work was confiscated. SciFi hijacked Tesla's idea to say the least.

In my opinion, research money would be well spent on per suites like the development of Tesla's Gravimetric Drive instead of Junk Science like the Man Made Global Warming Scam that is for nothing other than to make a few players wealthy by selling and trading Carbon Credits. Again, some people who call themselves Scientists are nothing more than Con Artists cooking up scams to get Grant Money that comes from our taxes.

To look on the bright side, the US Navy has developed a new fuel rod that can not be made into a nuclear weapon (including terrorists) and can be reprocessed at 95%. Plans are for small reactors based upon the new technology to be placed in African countries to supply them with energy. Word is that the big shot of Green Peace was briefed on the new technology a few years ago and is on board, as are all of the Washington Big Shots. Not that it needs to be sold, it will be sold as a cure for Man Made Global Warming and a way to solve the problem with radioactive waste. Another way to spin it into votes.
Lets say that the Air Force (my conjecture based upon past events) develops Tesla's Gravimetric Drive engine. Do you think that that will also be sold as a cure for an environmental problem that does or does not exist. Not that it needs to be sold, just developed. Anyway, look for it to pop up just before an election.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Yup, the Navy has been using HEU reactors since inception.
Its a good thing that they recently switched to LEU fuel. It costs less and has fewer security concerns.

Recycling spent nuclear fuel for further use is something that every other nuclear power nation
does but the U.S.. Over the last several decades lots of research has been put into MOX fuel and
other recycled fuels. I think it was about 15 years ago that those research reactors were shut down.
Yet we cant seem to figure out what to do with all the spent fuel currently stored at our nuclear
power plants.

Still didn't find much on the Tesla flying machine.
The most plausible idea is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
The mythbusters built one and you could build one too. Although it would still be tethered by wires
and would struggle to lift more than its own weight.

There was another Tesla design called the "flying oven." It looks to have motors and shafts with
spinning counterweights. I guess this would have something to do with Einstein's relationship
between speed, mass, and gravity. Where an object traveling at an infinite speed, has infinite mass
and therefore infinite gravity.
I'm not sure how this would allow you to fly, but...

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

Im sticking with 85w140 royal purple for rear and going to change front with dino like manual calls out. Better check my manual lol

Nope not that, I got the article back in 2005 when the working model was just tested and the performance published.
The Tesla engine I am referring to, even blows away the SciFi Star Trek Warp Drive in performance. The Tesla engine is not an ionic propulsion system either. Of course, they were not going to let the cat out of the bag and spill all the details.

One thing I learned is Google is a sales machine, that is how they get their money to operate on. Information that does not either educate us to consume or sell to us is put way low on the Google priority list. Other search engines follow the same MO. My son used an obscure hacker search engine to find the article, sorry.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

OooKkkk.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

I'll take the recommendation of Eaton corporation (which makes Dana axles), which will extend the warranty on my semi diffs to 750,000 miles from 500,000 miles when synthetics are used. Likewise, the Technology and Maintenance Council, which has more real world experience than all of us put together, has shown that synthetic gear lubes are recommended in virtually all situations.

_________________
*************************************
Environmentalist Green + Socialist Red = Facist Brown

2006 Liberty CRD, Frankenlift II, Al's A Arms, Moog LBJ's, GDE tune, Etechno GX3123 Glow plugs, Fumoto drain valve, Elephant hose CCV mod.