Towing question

NJBill · **Posted:** Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:18 pm

I only tow lightweight motorcycle trailers; been doing so for years. However, I am thinking about buying a light toy hauler in the 16' to 18' and 3,100 to 3,500 lbs dry range. I have no experience towing something this large, which is why I am here for advice. Here is an example of what I am looking at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270659769291&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

My motorcycle weighs about 300 lbs. and I do not have a ton of gear. Will my Liberty CRD be capable of towing this safely?

Thanks,
Bill

striperman36 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:28 pm

you won't even know it's there. We're rated to 5,000 in the old USoA. I tow about 3000 lbs of fiberglass and metal around on weekends during the season. I get around 19 towing, 26 not towing.

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:35 pm

The CRD will tow it all day long i would suggest some air bags in the rear or a heavier duty coil spring just for your comfort of course. Also so the KJs rear won't sit so low with the wieght of the trailer back there.

NJBill · **Posted:** Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:42 pm

Thanks for the quick responses.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:25 am

Load the trailer so that it is as balanced as possible, with a very slight bias to the ball end. The more weight sitting on the ball, the more you will feel a "pushing" effect when stopping. And absolutely make sure you have trailer brakes. Towing without brakes is possible, but a lot less fun. With trailer brakes, and set them to be slightly stronger (on the controller) than your effective vehicle stopping, and you won't even know the trailer is back there. Your trailer (as most in the USA) should already have a decent bias to the ball end (hopefully no more than 10%) but you will be OK as long as the ball has some weight, between 5 and 10% of the total trailer weight. Your motorcycle's weight and position will probably change the balance the most.

As another way of explaining what I mean about the trailer brakes, you want your engine to pull the trailer, but you want the trailer to stop your engine. Make sense? You are dealing with physics and forces through a pivot point, you always want the forces to be directly horizontal through the ball. If the trailer isn't stopping "stronger" than the engine, it will "push" through the ball, and if you are also turning at the same time (like on an exit ramp) then that "push" from the trailer WILL affect your turn and could cause you to lose control.

When using my CRD to pull a Jeep Grand Cherokee with a tow bar, the GC has no brakes. This "pushing" through the ball has caused me some butterflies several times, to the point that I am looking into the possibility of a removable "Brake Buddy" for that vehicle. All my other trailers have brakes, and they are all great... Even the big 7.5x20 enclosed car hauler trailer. (7k loaded weight)

The engine isn't the limiting factor for this vehicle, it is the stopping power.

striperman36 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:34 am

audiboy86 wrote:

The CRD will tow it all day long i would suggest some air bags in the rear or a heavier duty coil spring just for your comfort of course. Also so the KJs rear won't sit so low with the wieght of the trailer back there.

Airbags are a definite. Going in this winter

Wobbly · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:51 pm

striperman36 wrote:

audiboy86 wrote:

The CRD will tow it all day long i would suggest some air bags in the rear or a heavier duty coil spring just for your comfort of course. Also so the KJs rear won't sit so low with the wieght of the trailer back there.

Airbags are a definite. Going in this winter

Didn't need them pulling a 5,000 pound travel trailer with a Hensley Arrow hitch.
You will want a trailer brake controller, of course.

NJBill · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:16 pm

geordi wrote:

As another way of explaining what I mean about the trailer brakes, you want your engine to pull the trailer, but you want the trailer to stop your engine. Make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks again, guys, for all the useful feedback.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:04 pm

Forget the airbags :roll:

If you read the owner's manual it will tell you that a WDH (Weight Distributing Hitch) is required with a tongue weight of 300# or more. 10 to 15% of the trailers weight is put on the tongue for proper handling. Our trailer weights about 3000# or so and has a tongue weight of 400#. A WDH properly setup will smooth out the ride and restore the hitch height to where it was before lowering the trailer on to it. I'm also assuming you know that you'll need a electric brake controler on the jeep if you don't already have one.

Joe

danoid · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:02 pm

I like the AirLifts in the back, but they get real stiff in the winter.

My camper is 27', 5600# total / 1000# tongue, and a huge frontal area.

x2 on the brake controller suggestions.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:12 pm

Respectfully... Hitch height isn't the reason for spending the pile of cash on a weight-distributing-lever system. Improper trailer loading is.

The ride height changes because you have a lot of weight pressing on the ball. Sure, lifting the back end back to the stock height is desirable, and I DO believe in stronger springs or adjustable air springs that can be deflated when you don't have that weight on the back.

But why do you think the owners manual (written by lawyers) suggests that you spend such money? Because the BUILDER listened to bean-counter-engineering and didn't put stronger springs on it to begin with. Stronger springs would have toughened the ride, not given a "soft car like ride" (not that the CRD has that anyway) and when equipped with the stock BadYear Mush Wheels (all they can legally expect you to have) then putting ANY significant weight onto the back axle WILL change the handling and lighten the front wheels.

Here is the truth: I have put stronger TIRES on my CRD. I have not done ANYTHING to the suspension. Stock all the way, not even a lifting puck. I have put 1200 lbs onto the hitch in JUST tongue weight, without incident. Yes, the back end settled (about a full inch of travel at rest) under that weight. This created an "angle through the ball" hitch setup. The tires did NOT bulge in any noticeable manner, as they were Load Range D or E (had both at different times) under this weight. Towing was safe and successful, even in this improper hitch angle configuration.

What I mean by that is that the "proper" trailer configuration is that the frame of both the trailer and the towing vehicle remain horizontal and parallel to the roadway. If the tongue weight is too high, then the nose of the trailer and the rear of the tractor will BOTH be closer to the road, in relation to the respective ends of the vehicles. This is not parallel and horizontal. A WDH system seeks to "pull up" on the center pivot (the ball) by pulling DOWN on the frames of both vehicles, in an attempt to correct a fundamental mistake - You loaded your trailer incorrectly. The limitations of the WDH are that you will be unable to "transfer the weight" if it is beyond some point that exceeds the rating of the WDH. But again, this comes back to properly loading your trailer.

I know of 2 people on this board that have WDH systems. I know of 3-4 others that have pulled 7000 lb weights with their CRD, and without one of these systems. There are probably dozens of others that pull between 3000-5000 lbs with completely stock vehicles, except for upgraded tires. That is really the first thing you need to consider.

I do not believe in these systems, I believe in properly loading a trailer. My 7.5x20 enclosed box trailer EMPTY weighs in at 2000 lbs, and puts 500 onto the ball. This is a badly designed trailer, UNLESS in its designed use (car hauler) it is designed to have the weight of a car balanced and slightly behind the axle to LIGHTEN the ball. When fully loaded, it should only be putting (at a 10% rating) 700 onto the ball. I don't know for certain, I don't use it for a car hauler. In its current configuration as my portable shed, where I have INTENTIONALLY loaded everything heavy I could find (2 full tall cabinets, a filled tool chest and my 500 lb motorcycle) ALL behind the axles... The thing STILL puts down 1200 into the ball, 7000 total.

As I said, this is a badly designed trailer. Thankfully I pull it with my 30' RV now, so the tongue weight doesn't matter anymore. But my CRD did pull it, loaded. Having the proper suspension on your vehicle will do more to keep the frames horizontal than any WDH system will. You need to counter-act the extra tongue weight with springs or bags, THEN you need to transfer that weight into the road with stronger tires.

Spend the money on the tires first, after you get your toy hauler. Get the toy hauler weighed at a CAT brand scale at a truck stop, DO NOT TRUST the ratings from the manufacturer. Every trailer and RV is unique b/c of the options and possible dealer final prep changes. Chances are, you will probably only really need the tires and maybe the bags. An anti-sway system can make your life easier / more relaxed too, if you have the bucks. But it isn't required, just nice to have.

Lifting the back end should be done with the costs-fraction-of-a-WDH-airbag system, IF you need it. You might not.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:52 pm

geordi.

We agree to disagree!!!

Tell me how on this green earth empty travel trailers as they leave the factory are IMPROPERLY LOADED :?:

I've seen some of the stuff you tow and if you get into a problem that's your fault not mine.
How many travel trailers going down the highway have you seen without a WDH? And this is one time that Jeep reguardless who, be they be bean counters, engineers or lawyers are right. I have towed similiar trailers with and without a WDH on different vehicles and there's just no compairison. I choose to tow with all the safty equiptment I can get. And my "Bad Years" have left the building :seuss:

My WDH is properly rated and setup for my application, thanks :-)r

And you've done a good job of explaining how a WDH works :ROTFL:

Because a few people exceed the ratings of their equiptment does not make it the safe or right. And if more do it it's still not right :2cents:

Without enough tongue weight your tail will wag your dog :-)r

There's no way in haties you'll convince me otherwise.

So I recommend the original poster do a search and read up and make up his own mind.

Here's what my least favorite state has to say about hitches, towing, tongue weight and so forth. We know the % of morons there is high and they've spelled it all out very clearly for them :jester:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt12.htm

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:09 pm

I've pulled 7,000 lbs. a few times and got 14-16 MPG doing it (which is more than my Ram 1500 would get running totally empty). The CRD is a beast.

Having said that, IF I did this on a regular basis, I would without question:

A) Use a weight distributing hitch setup
B) Spend some money upgrading my trailer brake controls
C) Upgrade my factory coolers for transmission/engine

Occasional towing like this can be gotten away with if you're super careful, which I am. But if you tow on a regular basis, there is no excuse for not using the proper equipment. If you're in a wreck and t-bone somebody with 5,000 lbs. behind your Liberty, try explaining to the insurance company that you "don't need a weight distributing hitch".

tvine · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:44 pm

I pull an 18' Four Winns boat on a single axle Four Winns trailer with surge brakes. This should be in the weight range of your trailer. I have better than stock tires and a Mopar class III hitch. No mods to the Jeep. I have no issues towing this with the CRD and average 22 MPG towing it. I average 26 MPG with a maximum of 31 MPG highway when not towing.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:52 pm

X2 on the Weight Distribution Hitch. I have towed U Haul trailers loaded over 5000# with surge brakes that do not allow the use of the torsion bars. There is no comparison how much better my CRD will handle a load with the Weight Distribution Hitch. Add the sway control, it is better.
Besides, you will get flashed less a night for having your headlights too high.

danoid · **Posted:** Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:06 pm

Even with my Hensley Arrow, one of the fanciest weight distributing hitches you can get, without the stiffer rear springs afforded by the AirLifts, the back end would squat and squiggle under high torque in 1st and 2nd gears.

Jeep suspensions are soft. Gives better articulation when off-roading.

striperman36 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:42 am

Wobbly wrote:

striperman36 wrote:

audiboy86 wrote:

The CRD will tow it all day long i would suggest some air bags in the rear or a heavier duty coil spring just for your comfort of course. Also so the KJs rear won't sit so low with the wieght of the trailer back there.

Airbags are a definite. Going in this winter

Didn't need them pulling a 5,000 pound travel trailer with a Hensley Arrow hitch.
You will want a trailer brake controller, of course.

Aribags 80 bucks - Helmsley Arrow - lotsa bucks

Tow my boat only not the family palace

OldSkull · **Posted:** Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:49 am

GEORDI you pull a 30 feets Camping trailer with your CRD! G....I use a language traductor to give you some explanation of what you dealing with because It's not easy to explain for me in english...

Side wind impact on the truck :this side push on the point of harness tends to make him(it) revolve towards the source(spring) of the pressure and the felt effect depends on several factors.

1. The distance between the point of harness and the back wheels of the truck. More It's long.. more the effect of couple will be important and the more the running(race/oscillation) will be diverted.
2. The footing of the truck. The more he(it) is short, the more the effect of couple will be important and the more the running(race/oscilation)) will be diverted.
3. Tyres(pneumatics). The more they are stiff, the more they will tend to resist these side movements. In the limit a completely stiff tire would oppose totally to these pressures.

So in simple word you can control 2 of this factors using a WDS and stiffer tires but you cant modify the wheelbase of your Jeep, with a Liberty exceding a 23 feets long trailer can be very Hazardous...Front aerodynamic of the trailer is another factor to consider but less critical because they just produce a vortex behind the trailer and again the longuer the trailer the bigger will be the vortex.

Recommandation NJBILL :

1. install new stiffer tires on your truck or at least put 38Psi rear/ 34Psi front of your Badyear and be very carefull...

2. install a WDS and antisway CAM system ($100 sway bar is a cheaper option but I never consider such a system for a load over 3000pds )

3. Install a electricbrake control system (Tekonsha is the most popular and for good reason)

4. Install a auxilairy transmission cooler.

5. The most important of all...Paid a expert to adjust your WDS system, it's a cheap assurance and you get a bill to prove it if anything happen.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:51 pm

Oldskull and others - The biggest trailer I have pulled with my CRD is a CARGO trailer. 7.5' wide by 20' long, enclosed. Ramp door, it is designed as a car hauler, so it is very strong and balanced badly when empty. It is designed to have a very heavy weight over and behind the two axles, which would then balance the trailer's total weight.

I now pull that with a 30' MOTORHOME. The CRD is not involved. When I did pull it with my CRD however, it did not sway, for reasons that escape me. I actually was expecting it to give me problems, but it did not. The ONE trailer that has given me the most sway problems (to the point where I prefer not to pull this at all unless I have to) is the towbar and my Grand Cherokee. That thing pushes on the ball (sideways) constantly, and I am looking into an anti-sway system for that towbar.

As for the design of a camping trailer, I suggested that the original poster go and get his new camping trailer weighed before he loads anything into it. This suggestion is not from me, it is actually suggested by all the RV and Trailer industry publications, because dealers and manufacturers all put different things into and onto the frame of an RV AFTER it has been rated by the original manufacturer.

I do not own a camping TRAILER, but I understand the idea of wind loading onto the side of any trailer. Crosswinds are dangerous, and I do not believe that any WDH or anti-sway system will protect you from excessive crosswinds. Every year there are many stories of semi-trucks knocked over on the road by crosswinds. Our vehicles are much lighter, so yes, that is a danger to all of us.

A new camping trailer may or may not be unbalanced, based on its design. There is no way to know without weighing it, without the towing vehicle attached. Getting the exact axle and tongue weights is the goal, so that the owner can know how to properly load the trailer. Maybe it needs MORE tongue weight, maybe it doesn't.

The only thing that anyone on here has "seen" that I pull is a generator trailer. I have posted that picture several times, and I will do it again here for clarity.

This generator trailer CANNOT BE MIS-LOADED as it was designed and built as a single unit. The tongue weight on that trailer is actually only about 350 lbs. I can lift it up (with the jack) and lever it side-to-side relatively easily. Other similar generators (smaller 25kW units) have even lighter tongue weights that I can completely lift by hand. IF that trailer had the full "10%" tongue weight that some suggest to prevent trailer away, I would never be able to do that. The generator and trailer weighs 6840 lbs, measured by a scale. It has its own surge brakes (which work great) and did NOT SWAY AT ALL when pulling. It is properly loaded over its own axles. Considering that this generator is just about the same size as the grand cherokee behind my CRD, either the extra pivot point of the GC's own steering is what causes the instability, or there is some relationship with the tow bar and wheelbases that is enabling the sway to happen so easily. Simply adding weight to the rear axle of my vehicle (tongue weight on the bar) is not the answer, but the original poster won't have that same problem - He is towing an actual trailer where the only pivot point will be the ball itself, just like pulling this generator, or a boat, or anything else.

OldSkull · **Posted:** Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:41 pm

I misanderstood you GEORDI about the 30' RV you got ! Sorry my bad! :cry:

Been in transport industries all my life and seen so many time people gambling with the security of other on the road make me a bit paranoïd! Getting a blowout and literaly loose the control because they have 12 years old tires on the trailer or running over 65Mph with conventionnal tube tire, brake totaly done or not working at all on the trailer, pulling heavy load with a underpower or light weight vehicule...The list is so long I can barely remember all...

If anything happen and you are not conform to road security code or towing spec of your tandem, you can be pursuit in court and if someone get kill the worse is to come....You need a fracking good lawer...

When I tow anything with a vehicule only one rule apply in my book ......No gambling allowed :!:

Towing question

Who is online