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Died!?!
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63654		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  area52 [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Died!?!
2006 Liberty CRD 80,000 miles, new fuel filter, oil change and transmission filter/fluid in the last 3,000 miles. I have unplugged the MAF sensor so the EGR stays shut.

I started it up this morning, kinda rough due to cold but nothing out of the ordinary. Idled fine at about 800 or so rpm.

Put it in gear and gave a little throttle, no increase in RPM. coasted down the driveway and when I went to give it a little more throttle, it increased to about 1500 rpm then just died! Pulled off the road and tried a restart and it sounded like no combustion at all, just about 400 rpm.

any thoughts on where to start the diagnosis?
Author:  TJ2 [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Do you have a scan tool? More will be revealed if you post fault codes.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Check the air filter, air hoses from the turbo to the engine, they are ripe for failure and could easily not pass enough air at cold idle to keep the engine running. Was the engine louder and lots of clattering, like a Jake Brake was active? That is lack of air or bad combustion from lack of heat / glow plugs.

We need to see if there are any glow plug codes.
Author:  nissanfrontier [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Not sure if you have read sams noob guide but has to be fuel related. Fuel heater unpluged or relay pulled by now? Could need new fuel filter head as it melts in the connection. Plenty of information on lostkjs search it
Author:  area52 [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
I replaced the fuel filter head the same time as the new filter, new wiring for the heater also.

It did not make any unusual sounds before it died. It sounds to me like a gas engine that has lost a timing belt, spins freely with the starter and sounds like no compression at all.

I do not have a code reading either.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Did you check for air in the filter :?:
Author:  area52 [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
I replaced the fuel filter awhile ago and it was purged. I just drove this thing about 300 miles yesterday with no problems.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Well first thing i would do is try and re-prime the filter that way i can elminate that possiblity before i start going through the harder stuff. If you did just replace the fuel filter and head there is a goo possiblity that a gasket or connection hose just isnt seated all the way. I would check my turbo to intercool and intercooler to engine hoses if you split one of them you will definitely get some odd activity.
Author:  tregrrr [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Umm no... guys... the first thing that needs to be done is a scan tool needs to be applied to the OBD2 port, the p0100 ignored (MAF unplugged) and the other codes written down and posted here. If it no workie, there is a good chance something somewhere tripped a sensor and knowing which sensor will allow more than shots in the dark guessing at what the cause might be.

Get the codes
Author:  nissanfrontier [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Mine did this also did your dealer do f37 mine did and broke the connection for harness or someone pulled out crank sensor wire. Lesson learned never trust a Chrysler dealer, check codes like suggested above. Why would you wire up heater? Maybe you confused water sensor wires coming off bottom
Author:  audiboy86 [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
He can't drive it right now so what will it hurt to check the fuel first if that solves it then no need for the scan tool. Or if he has a hole in a hose yes it will show a code but he still has to find the hose. So i was just saying start with the 2 easiest possibilities and work your way down from there. Since it will have to be towed to where ever the codes will be read. So unless he has a buddy will a truck with a dolly, roll back, tow bar etc. then it will cost him quite a bit to get to code reader. I mean it is definitely either a to much/little fuel or air issue. And those are the main components that go and people have issues with.
Author:  yrkcrd [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
I thought the new fuel filter head eliminated the problem and the wiring and overheating and it was OK to leave it plugged in?
Author:  tregrrr [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
audi...
Fair enough, I often forget that people often do not have ready access to scanners.


I believe that a 100$ scan tool is a good investment since the vast majority of vehicles in common usage today would give up some if not all their secrets in 20 seconds to the holder of said tool. Electronic diagnostics are only going to get more robust, and they are here to stay. When using the forums as a diagnostic tool, its far better use of everyone's time and effort to present as succinct a description of issues as possible; electronic sensors provide a good starting point for most diagnostics since the sensor is either in spec or out of spec, and clearing it will then tell you if it is remains out of spec. The new black art is no longer keeping the carbs in tune or figuring out the sounds... its in taking a list of cryptic codes and doing the Dr. House thing to see what fits.

That 100$-300$ tool will pay for itself in the decreased diagnostic time. I do figure my spare time to be worth something...to me at least.
:2cents:
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
yrkcrd - the 2n gen head does take care of the fuel heater plug overheating and inducing air into the system from that plug which cures air in the fuel for many, myself included. However, air can still get in from 1) a filter that's not fully tightened; 2) leaving the old center gasket on when installing a new filter; 3) possibly from a loose WIF sensor; and 4) for those pesky fuel line quick disconnect fittings. Hence the very first thing to do if the vehicle cranks but won't start or cranks up and almost immediately dies is to bleed the fuel head.
Author:  yrkcrd [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
papaindigo wrote:
yrkcrd - the 2n gen head does take care of the fuel heater plug overheating and inducing air into the system from that plug which cures air in the fuel for many, myself included. However, air can still get in from 1) a filter that's not fully tightened; 2) leaving the old center gasket on when installing a new filter; 3) possibly from a loose WIF sensor; and 4) for those pesky fuel line quick disconnect fittings. Hence the very first thing to do if the vehicle cranks but won't start or cranks up and almost immediately dies is to bleed the fuel head.

Thank you :JEEPIN:
Author:  area52 [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Got it towed to a shop I trust. It was the timing belt, they say it stripped? I tend to believe them since it acted like it did not have any compression at all.

Off to the timing belt threads to get some numbers and prices!!
Author:  geordi [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
Get pictures of that belt, I find that VERY difficult to believe. Also, the tear-down to get to the belt is a good hour or so of diagnostic time for a fishing trip.

If your timing belt is the cause, this would be a very early failure at only 80k miles, but you will also be in the market for all new rocker arms - They will be trashed. If you got VERY lucky, you might only need "some" of them, they are like $65 each, and you have 16 of them...
Author:  tregrrr [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
area52 wrote:
*snip* It was the timing belt, they say it stripped?*snip*


geordi wrote:
Get pictures of that belt, I find that VERY difficult to believe. *snip*


x2

But IF it is stripped... why?? Is there something that might have grenaded to stop one toothed cog in the system whilst the others wanted to still turn thus taking away those valuable teeth?? as far as the 80k mileage and dead belt, is the 100k requirement not established based upon a statistical extrapolation?? I know Mean Time Before Failure in electronics is established that way; an acceptable number of premature failures being set at some arbitrary % is established by our favourite bean-counting engineers. then they put the service life at a point that hangs 0.5% ( or 0.1% or 2% or whatever the arbitrary percentage is) out to dry. Considering 12,000 USA/CAN CRD's that means 60 jeeps are destined to get new rockers provided the 100k limit is followed by everyone. There will be some who earn new rockers by pushing the issue too long, and there will be some who avert it by being proactive and replacing an unknown time-bomb premature TB failure a couple thousand miles early for whatever reason....

Its the laws of averages and they don't lie. Sometimes they can be bent a bit, but bye and large they hold true... just ask the owners of casino's :jester: On any given day they may lose $$$ but in the long run they see what they expect to see
Author:  Wobbly [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
"Put it in gear and gave a little throttle, no increase in RPM"

I would want to see the codes, before I gave the shop permission to do a timing belt job.
How did they verify that the timing belt was damaged?
Do they have the special tools for the VM?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Died!?!
FYI - worst case - the engine is designed to break rocker arms (although I think Sam bought all of the ones in the US)
and not pistons or valves.


and when you get it back - the new fuel head fixes the heater port air-in-fuel - it doesn't fix the leaky tank connections that were designed for pressure instead of vacuum.
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