Need a reason to change your timing belt?

Big Montana · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:40 pm

I waited for ages to change my belt because of cost. I wanted to do the job myself, but I feared that I lacked the ability. I paid the Jeep off and saved up some money, and then I sent it in to a dealer after researching the area to be sure they had a mechanic with the experience to do the job. I've owned her since new and I just hit 109k miles.

The mechanic said that the belt snapped as he rotated the gears to line it up for the locking pins.

Here are the pics of the belt.

I was worried when he told me this over the phone and that the Jeep was blowing smoke on acceleration once he put it together. It turns out he ripped the air intake hose while taking it off.

So far, it looks like everything is timed correctly. They must have wiped my GDE Eco tune though even though I told them in writing not to do so. I forgot what a giant cloud of black looks like when hammering the go peddle while passing. I suspect that he was trying to diagnose the black smoke with his computer. He also seems to have stripped and retaped the wires for my MAF sensor perhaps in an attempt to figure out why my EGR wasn't working.

If you want to compare costs:
The parts for this job were
water pump $275
gasket $4
timing belt $229
Antifreeze $21
Labor for 8.5 hours is $884
Total cost $1413

Here's a small problem that I have (other than $229 for a belt) I asked for the two pulleys and the tensioner to be replaced and they told me over the phone that it wasn't needed. I thought that he meant my accessory belt pulleys so I said it was fine.

I'm not sure if those are prone to fail. If I make it to the next belt change then I guess he saved me money.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Last point. That belt was put on in January 2005 and has been through seven Michigan winters. No towing and mostly highway miles.

omaharacer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:30 am

I'm glad you got it back together, but holy crap. The timing belt job isn't really that difficult. I've done my primary CRD twice (bad water pump), and my wife's CRD once (bad rockers/lifters from previous owner). Obviously too late at this point for you, but if anyone else is reading this - do the timing belt yourself. Just rent the tools from GDE. You will save a boatload of money, not break anything, know what has/hasn't been replaced, and then have the knowledge for future repairs.

naturist · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:02 am

Close indeed! Did you hear the whistle as the bullet passed your ear? From the sounds of it, had you stopped for fuel on the way to drop off the CRD at the mechanic, you'd have bit the big one.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:39 am

I figured I would take some heat for not doing it myself and that's fine. There is a lot of info here to make it look pretty simple and a HECK of a lot cheaper, but there are just as many posts with questions after someone had a problem. I'm not sure what would have happened for me if I broke the belt while trying to line everything up. In my mind I picture spinning gears, but perhaps they don't move that much. I can't be the only person on this board that doesn't want to do the job, BUT this is also why I posted the price I paid. That may be enough for someone to say "Forget that. I'm doing it myself!" I just didn't have the time (or the confidence) to do the job let alone pull the head and replace the rockers after I missed a step and screwed everything up.

I am pretty irked over the price of the parts on top of the labor, but I guess that's the price for peace of mind. I've never liked this dealership, but the other shop I liked lost their diesel mechanic. This is the first non-warranty work I've had done on the Jeep since I've owned it, and it won't need to be done for another 100k. I guess I can live with it at this point. I'm not sure if all dealerships use the same prices for parts.

By the time it's due for the next one it shouldn't be my daily driver, so I'll be more inclined to try it myself. If you guys are all still around in seven years I'll post my results.

Lancer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:01 am

I won't be doing it myself either. I park in the road outside my house, so any work I do on mine is out there - I don't have a drive or access to a garage. There is no way I'm doing that sort of job in the street!

dritchie · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:42 am

That is a close call. However, that tear in the intake elbow would not be the cause of black smoke as it is before the turbo.

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:34 pm

THat sort of story scares me in to having mine done at 100,000 miles. I won't be doing mine myself either, I just don't have the confidence to do that kind of work. I replaced a head gasket in a car before I needed some help with that and we almost bungled the timing in that and it was only a little 8 valve single cam Isuzu 4 cylinder engine. this one is way more advanced so not going to try.

I also don't think that air intake hose caused the black smoke. that hose is not part of the pressurized air intake system it is before the turbo so all that would do is let unfiltered air in.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:42 pm

For anyone on the East Coast who wants this done by a Jeep CRD member that knows how to do the job properly... Hi there.

You can come to me, I can come to you... Either way, a few hours under the hood, and your CRD will be much happier for a long while.

Hexus · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:38 pm

geordi wrote:

For anyone on the East Coast who wants this done by a Jeep CRD member that knows how to do the job properly... Hi there.

You can come to me, I can come to you... Either way, a few hours under the hood, and your CRD will be much happier for a long while.

We may be talking real soon Geordi.

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:07 pm

Close indeed... mine jumped time at 94,000 due to the tensioner failed. I would have replaced the tensioner and pullys before spent the money on a new water pump. I replaced all the rockers & lifters. There was a lot of worn rocker. Runs now beter than ever.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:51 pm

Just a note. I know the "book" says 100,000 miles and is silent on time but I'm not comfortable ignoring time given that our vehicles are now 6-7+ years old or so. This is something for those of us low mileage folks (I'm at about 45,000) to consider. In fact I'll probably replace my TB the same time I do my serp belt which will be at about 48,000. My personal time working on my personal vehicle is free and the belt is cheap while rockers and lifters are not.

Maybe way too conservative for some but... Now if the pulleys/tension/WP feel solid I may let them run to 100,000 after all it's rotation that does them in not belt rot.

Just my personal opinion though.

I'd still love to know how they really broke the belt and the same for jinstall. I just don't see that much stress on the belt while manually rotating the engine to line up to install the pins but...

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:29 pm

I would put my money on that they turned the engine counter clock wise and stressed the old belt. Must turn clock wise.
Unlike some people stating you dont need to loosen the cam bolts. If you dont you may placing un do stress on the timing belt and it may cause premature failure. When loosened the tenision between the cams are set for the new belt. IT ONLY TAKES 10 MIN'S

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:00 pm

Sorry, I disagree with that. There isn't any "undue stress" applied to the belt when either turning it by hand (in both directions) or when installing the belt without unlocking the cams. You don't need to "set the tension between the cams for the new belt" because if there WAS some microscopic difference, the instant you remove the cam keys and that big cam lock, they would adjust themselves into the belt - They only rotate in relation to each other BECAUSE of that belt, nothing else exists to "provide stress" on that system.

The cams themselves are about 8 or so (haven't counted exactly) belt-teeth apart from top-center to top-center. Considering that an old 100k mile belt when stretched and worn MUST STILL BE IN TIME or the engine wouldn't make it to 100k... And also considering that we KNOW from other vehicles here that the engine only has a tolerance of about 1 tooth off of properly timed... The difference between a stretched belt and a new belt, within 8 teeth... Isn't any difference worth noting.

Case in point: EVERY ONE of the timing jobs I have done has been the same way: Rotate the engine by hand to the proper 90-after-TDC location, so that both cam keys properly install to their bases. Fully threaded. Once they are in place, install the big cam lock handle - nothing moves from this point. Mark the cams, the fuel pump, and the crank (which should be slightly 1/2 tooth clockwise of perfectly vertical orientation of the holes) and loosen the tensioner.

The old belt slides off without rotating anything other than the water pump or the idlers. The new belt WILL SLIDE ON PERFECTLY with the cams in precisely the same position - They do not need to move. Work around the engine from there, reseating everything fully, until everything is in place waiting to properly set the tensioner. NOTHING MOVES until the belt is tensioned, then extract the big cam lock and the keys. Rotate clockwise by hand. No stress has been imparted, this is exactly how the entire system is designed to work.

What do I think happend in Big Montana's case? The tech goofed somewhere, either trying to rotate everything with one of the keys in place to try and line up the crankshaft key (Which CANNOT line up on a stretched belt) and over stressed the belt... Or that belt truly was just a whisker from failing and even turning it by hand was too much. The belt doesn't know or care which way it rotates, it is all the same force. Simple physics, it is linear force. Direction is irrelevant.

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:18 pm

Beleve what you may. But engineers that design these engines beleve. This is why they did not install keyways to keep the cams at a single place and they spell out the procedure in the manual. Like i said 10 min's. Not worth taking the chance in my mind.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:45 am

Turning the engine opposite than normal direction should not cause a belt to break, nor will it cause any extra tension on the belt. The only thing that *could* happen could be that the tensioner would not do its job properly if an engine were rotated in the opposite direction, and a timing belt could skip teeth. I have seen this on other engines, but never a broken belt. I wonder what really caused the belt to break? Perhaps it was mechanic error, perhaps it was just it's time... we'll never no for sure I am afraid.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:59 am

MRausch82 wrote:

Turning the engine opposite than normal direction should not cause a belt to break, nor will it cause any extra tension on the belt. The only thing that *could* happen could be that the tensioner would not do its job properly if an engine were rotated in the opposite direction, and a timing belt could skip teeth. I have seen this on other engines, but never a broken belt. I wonder what really caused the belt to break? Perhaps it was mechanic error, perhaps it was just it's time... we'll never no for sure I am afraid.

I too would love to know what caused the belt to break. Everything seems fine at this point, so I'm more than willing to let it go. I just took some pictures under the hood though and now I have a few questions...

Here's the intake locking pin location on my Jeep after the change. The original bolt seems to be gone, and there is now a new bolt with a sleeve that is now dripping oil! This screams cobble job to me. I'm not sure why this would be this way.

My Jeep:

Correct Jeep:

I have also noticed that he failed to put the heat shield back on under the exhaust locking pin hole
My Jeep:

Correct Jeep:

How important is a heat shield? They may need to replace it for me. Why is there a different bolt in the intake hole? I wonder if the hole was screwed up during the belt breaking activity and now that's a tapped bolt? I'm glad that I have these pictures. I'm going to wipe up the oil and if I get more then they will receive the pictures and a request for a repair.

What do you guys think?

Big Montana · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:16 am

papaindigo wrote:

Just a note. I know the "book" says 100,000 miles and is silent on time but I'm not comfortable ignoring time given that our vehicles are now 6-7+ years old or so. This is something for those of us low mileage folks (I'm at about 45,000) to consider. In fact I'll probably replace my TB the same time I do my serp belt which will be at about 48,000. My personal time working on my personal vehicle is free and the belt is cheap while rockers and lifters are not.

Maybe way too conservative for some but... Now if the pulleys/tension/WP feel solid I may let them run to 100,000 after all it's rotation that does them in not belt rot.

Just my personal opinion though.

I'd still love to know how they really broke the belt and the same for jinstall. I just don't see that much stress on the belt while manually rotating the engine to line up to install the pins but...

Based on the condition of my belt I would say go for it. The rubber is very stiff and brittle. I'm not missing any teeth, but there are cracks under most of them that shows they could sheer off at any moment.

I'm not a rubber expert, but I suspect that seven years of hot/cold living under the hood had just as much to do with the damage as 110k miles.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:03 pm

That, to me, looks like a rig. They should have put everything exactly as it was, and not left any parts missing. The oil dripping is not good, either. I would go back and show them these things and tell them to make it right. I think, if I don't do the timing belt job myself, I will ask members on here to do the job, or at least assist me when the time comes... which will be in the Spring I suspect.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:08 pm

Some CRDs have an OEM hex bolt in that hole but there shouldn't be a sleeve and it shouldn't be leaking oil. DCJ has a history going back decades of using slightly different parts depending on what's "in the bin" when the vehicle comes down the line. I say based on past experience, for example my 1993 Dodge D250 build sheet said I had the standard 3/4 ton axle with 2.5" drum brakes but in reality I had the 1 ton axle with 3" brakes and the 3/4 ton highway ratio differential.

Regardless of heat shield function they owe you a heat shield replacement.

Need a reason to change your timing belt?

Who is online