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| I'm at my whits end... I need some help. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70726 |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Okay, I couldn't find anyone local that was willing to do the timing belt/water pump change except for the dealer. I already had the parts and the guys were cool there and also helped me with replacing the right front drive shaft. The Jeep drives nice once again. However, I've had a noticeable whine coming from the turbo that got worse over time. I asked the dealer mechanic to see what he could find but he thought it sounded good and claimed it was good to go. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of a HEALTHY turbo but I had the turbo intake hose in the box of parts for the TB/water pump change but that one I got back, meaning, he didn't swap it out. I noticed that since getting it back, it smokes quite a bit more. I followed it while my wife was driving and could see black smoke most of the time, especially when accelerating. This is obviously a newer condition. It also will puff out a small amount of white smoke, say when leaving from a stop sign (pulling away after a brief stop). The white smoke was a symptom prior to the dealer touching it during the TB change. Well, tonight my wife pulled into the garage and I heard her shut it down. There is a sound coming from what sounds like the turbo of a metal scraping or bad bearings. I took the air box off and pulled on the turbo inlet air hose and the base separated. I checked the play of the "fins" and there was virtually no side to side play but there was about 1/4" or so front to back. There was also a little oil on the intake tube area just before the fins, but the fins looked to be clean. I wiped it off and put the new hose on. This was the source of the loud turbo and it sounded normal again with the new hose. I took it out for a drive and got on it a bit. At WOT I could hear the turbo spool but there was also a noise that is hard to explain. There was a brief "screeching" sound. My first thought was a belt but after repeatedly doing this to narrow down the sound, I think it might be turbo related. When I eventually shut it down, there was the sound of the bad bearings again as the turbo wound down to a stop. I'm not really sure where to go from here. I'm thinking maybe having a turbo shop look at it? Any ideas on the smoking and the sounds without being here to look at it yourself? I hate just throwing new parts at it and crossing my fingers. However, I will change the fuel filter tomorrow, clean the MAP sensor, and change the oil. Thanks, Craig |
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| Author: | Hoosier CRD [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Okay, so moving the turbo comp wheel up and down, it does not touch the housing, right? But grabbing the nut in the middle of the comp wheel and moving the wheel and shaft assembly in and out, you get about 1/4"? That does not sound good. In my opinion, it sounds like you have bearing failure in the turbo and the noise you are hearing is one of the wheels, compressor or turbine, is scraping their respective housing when they settle down from spinning. Suggest finding a diesel shop in the Spokane area that can grab the turbo at the comp wheel and tell you for sure. Those guys tend to work on turbos frequently and can tell you for sure. Hope this helps. Hoosier CRD |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
If the turbo has that much play in it, I would stop driving it. The sound of metal on metal is not a good sign. If the turbo fails and breaks apart, it will send metal shards through the engine via the oil passages possibly destroying the motor, as it did to another member when his turbo failed. Giving it an oil change is always a good thing but what you will most likely need to do is replace the Turbo..... and it's not cheap. The black smoke could be several other things but the most likely cause is that the turbo is going bad. Hopefully you caught it early enough. Good Luck. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
That is not what killed my motor - the oil leak from the failed turbo did. Any "metal shards" that might make their way into the oil return will simply end up in the pan and then the filter. I agree with Hoosier however - you have a bearing failure and the turbo will most likely need to be replaced. Check for your local Bosch injector shop, they are (in a lot of cases) also a Garrett turbo dealer, and can get you the turbo for a LOT less than the dealer. Think half the price. It will probably be in the neighborhood of $1100 or so, but the stealership will want close to 2k for the SAME PART. Also be aware: There is NO CORE on these, and anyone that asks for one is blowing smoke at you. Walk away from that shop, you don't want to risk getting someone's half-baked idea of a rebuild. Garrett does NOT authorize rebuilding these, and my own rebuild (did it myself) sounded exactly like you describe, except mine didn't make any noise while running - only at shutdown. These things are WAY too precise, they have to be to spin at 100,000 RPM and not vibrate apart. The replacement isn't too terrible, I can walk you through it if you are skilled with basic wrenches, first timers would probably take about 4-5 hours for the job being careful. As for driving it to a turbo shop to have them check it - The Garrett dealer / injector shop should be able to do that for you too, they will be familiar with how a turbo feels too from rebuilding others that can be. But I wouldn't drive it anywhere else, and I would be very gentle with it - NO hard accelerations at all, be the slowest one on the road, you don't want the turbo to spool up very high or very fast - both those equal heat and potential wear. Keep an eye on your oil level too, a wearing turbo will start to leak oil past the bearing into the exhaust - This is what killed my engine when my first turbo seized - in less than 30 seconds (Of a Batmobile Smoke Screen) the #1 cylinder starved for oil and did severe damage. When I had my second turbo (came with engine #2) start making "jingling / scraping" type noises while running, I discovered that it was leaking oil much much slower, and I was able to get it home by only topping off 2 quarts. You are probably approaching the same point - a slow leak. My third turbo, the rebuild of the second one, didn't leak any oil, but that was the one that scraped only at shutdown. I didn't leave it in long enough to let it develop a leak. |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Geordi, Yes, mine too makes its noise on shut down but I did check my oil and it was low. I also get a puff of some white/light colored smoke immediately after I begin to accelerate. The engine sounds excellent other then that so I imagine there hasn't been any damage done? When your engine was starved of oil and was damaged, was it really obvious at first, like I assume it would be? What do you think? Craig |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
I put about 1.5 quarts of oil in it. Its now a little high (about midway between min/max). I want the GDE turbo and might go that route but I'm checking into a local Bosch dealer now and waiting to hear back from him on a price. Thanks again for the help. Craig |
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| Author: | MRausch82 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Hammy713 wrote: I put about 1.5 quarts of oil in it. Its now a little high (about midway between min/max). I want the GDE turbo and might go that route but I'm checking into a local Bosch dealer now and waiting to hear back from him on a price. Thanks again for the help. Craig Yikes, that sure sounds like a bad turbo. The low oil and whitish puff of smoke on acceleration is not good (oil burning I would guess). Like others have said, stop driving it immediately. Not worth the risk to kill an otherwise good (and expensive) engine. You can get new Garrett turbos for our CRD's for under $1200 I believe. I would get a brand new one, avoid rebuilt units, as Garrett says they cannot and should not be rebuilt. I have no experience with the rebuilt ones, but I would say given this info, I would get a brand new unit myself. |
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| Author: | msilbernagel [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
How many miles on the current engine/turbo? Mark |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
We're just over 107,00 miles but I've suspected an issue for the past six months or so. My wife drives this Jeep and just shuts it off with no cool down. We live up a 1 mile climb so the turbo gets a workout no doubt. No matter how much I tell her, she doesn't listen. This may change her behavior though. Of course the dealer said its all fine and "sounds good" due too the higher pitch of the whine, which I found was the torn intake hose last night. I've been on the phone all day. I have a shop that is checking with Garret to see what they have new. These guys are a Bosch injector dealer. Another turbo diesel and injector shop here in town said they rebuild turbos all the time and said these should be no different then the VW's and another one which I can't remember. He said it might just need a new "center section" but he took the part number of the turbo and was going to look into it and get back to me. Many shops referred to these guys and said they are the only ones who should be doing any rebuilding. That's the issue with this Jeep, its so rare that nobody knows anything except guys on this forum but I'm not a full time mechanic, which a guy almost needs to be to own this rig. Anyway, I'll let you know what I find out. Any other ideas or comments are more then welcome. |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
After checking, the diesel shop found the same thing that's stated here, no aftermarket center sections. He can get me a new turbo for $1025 plus shipping. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Hammy713 wrote: After checking, the diesel shop found the same thing that's stated here, no aftermarket center sections. He can get me a new turbo for $1025 plus shipping. Is that the Bosch shop's deal? B/c that is a VERY good price, slightly less than the $1080 I was quoted several years ago to get one from a shop in Brazil that had it in stock. At the time, that was the closest Garrett place that had it available. |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
That is the diesel turbo and injector shop.. They said they could have it in 3 days. |
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| Author: | Hoosier CRD [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Hammy713 wrote: After checking, the diesel shop found the same thing that's stated here, no aftermarket center sections. He can get me a new turbo for $1025 plus shipping. X 2 on the good deal. Garrett P/N: 763360-5001S is what you should look for on the box--and it should come in a box with a bag wrapped around it and a red plastic cap on the compressor opening. There may be other caps in various orifi, i.e oil drain. Get a new mounting gasket from Mother Mopar. Suggest also to get a new oil feed line, P/N 05142607AA along with new banjo bolt and copper washers. The bolt and washers can come from the turbo shop. Hope this helps. Hoosier CRD |
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| Author: | geordi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Hoosier CRD wrote: Hammy713 wrote: After checking, the diesel shop found the same thing that's stated here, no aftermarket center sections. He can get me a new turbo for $1025 plus shipping. X 2 on the good deal. Garrett P/N: 763360-5001S is what you should look for on the box--and it should come in a box with a bag wrapped around it and a red plastic cap on the compressor opening. There may be other caps in various orifi, i.e oil drain. Get a new mounting gasket from Mother Mopar. Suggest also to get a new oil feed line, P/N 05142607AA along with new banjo bolt and copper washers. The bolt and washers can come from the turbo shop. Hope this helps. Hoosier CRD And remember: NO CORE CHARGE! I don't think they will ask you for one, but just in case. Hoosier's description is exactly how mine showed up, and the oil lines both had red plastic caps stuffed in them. The Banjo bolt and washers will be easily sourced (and cheaper!) from the Injector shop, they probably have a bin full already. I haven't replaced the metal exhaust gasket on mine with any of the multiple times I have pulled the turbo, and even with this latest time when I pulled the head (and the turbo had to come out for that) the metal gasket is still looking perfect without any obvious indications of soot crossings from an exhaust leak. YMMV, but I personally wouldn't give the dealer a dollar if I could avoid it, and that seal isn't like a liquid seal - It isn't really a true crush seal. The copper washers on the other hand... Those DO deform under pressure, and should be replaced. I haven't replaced my oil feed line, but I also haven't ever removed it - It's up to you to decide on that one, but as long as it is in good condition and flowing freely (spray it out with brake cleaner if you remove it) then it should be OK - it is just a hose. The business end is the banjo bolt, and you can see that the oil outlet on the bolt is 1/2 the size of the interior of that oil line - It doesn't flow much because of that bolt's restrictive hole size. |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Thanks a ton guys, you've been extremely helpful. I'll keep you posted. |
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| Author: | Glend [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
How hard did you look? There seems to be an ebay seller in San Diego with the turbo your looking for (and more than one) for $697 USD. Have a look here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-TURBO ... 0862356860 |
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| Author: | MRausch82 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Glend wrote: How hard did you look? There seems to be an ebay seller in San Diego with the turbo your looking for (and more than one) for $697 USD. Have a look here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-TURBO ... 0862356860 Aftermarket turbo = asking for trouble... 
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| Author: | geordi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
MRausch82 wrote: Aftermarket turbo = asking for trouble... THIS, times 10,000. |
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| Author: | ChooChooman74 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
I would not buy a turbo off ebay. Too vital of an organ. Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2 |
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| Author: | Hammy713 [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I'm at my whits end... I need some help. |
Thanks for the advice but I'm sticking to either the stock OEM or the GDE stage 2. |
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