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Time for a new turbo
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72254		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ROCK! [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Time for a new turbo
Iv been reading, and searching threw threads here with no definitive answer to my question. I believe the turbo is starting to go out on my Jeep. Iv got low boost, terrible mileage, and has lost power. She still runs good, but is starting to lag. I want to start putting parts together now, before something goes wrong. Problem is, I can't seem to find any good information on this. My plan is to run a bigger turbo, and an aftermarket intercooler. So far every intercooler I find is either too big or is the same stupid plastic tank design. As far as turbos go, I can't find anything other than a stock replacement. So I guess my first question would be, has anyone here used a bigger turbo? If so, what did you use, and what were your results?

Sense I highly doubt anyone has actually run a bigger turbo/intercooler, if you were doing this to yours what would you suggest? I'm not really after a bunch of power, it's more about fuel efficiency. The plan is to put more air in, without using more fuel. I know that can only go so far, but it is common knowledge that more air equals more power. More power equals ease of mobility, which translates to higher fuel efficiency. I don't have an unlimited budget, but I won't buy cheap junk either. I need to put this together as cheap as possible, but need high quality parts. If you have any ideas or suggestions, I'm all ears.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
First and biggest response: If your CRD is still drivable, your turbo IS NOT FAILING and HAS NOT FAILED. It will not fail politely, or take long to do it. It will die quick and noisily. When it does, you may have SECONDS to recognize the problem, get the transmission into neutral, and the key OFF. Doesn't matter if you are still coasting - you do not have the time to drive your way to the side of the road if you want to protect your engine. If you hear a pop / screech / bang and a sudden cloud of smoke behind you... DON'T WAIT OR THINK. Just slam it in neutral and shut the key off one click. The engine will stop, the steering will remain unlocked. NOW coast to the side of the road.

You have the wrong vehicle to try and up the power much - this engine is too fragile.

That said, your logic isn't terrible, but has a couple flaws in it. More power does usually equate to getting more work done in the same time, or getting less work done easier (more efficient) when it is paired with the proper application. Gearing. Bigger front end power needs to be coupled with taller gearing to maximize the potential and reduce the overall engine speed to keep it within the power band. A diesel's power band is VERY narrow, simply stuffing more air into it wil only accomplish two things: leaning out the fuel mix more (Ok, that cools the diesel EGTs) and risking your head gasket from cylinder pressures it wasn't prepared for.

To actually increase the power while ONLY stuffing more air into it, you first have to be operating below the stoich point for diesel fuel. Is your engine smoking constantly now? Then you have too MUCH fuel going in, or you have a boost leak. A boost leak is a VERY VERY common problem with these - the CCV system rots out the hoses, the boost pressure forces the oil into the very walls of the hoses, furthering the rot... Finally the hose becomes porous and the oil rises to the surface, continuing the degradation while the exterior of the hose grows a thick layer of filth.

If this describes your hoses... Then that is 95% of the problem you are having right there. Change those hoses, and you will probably find all your power returned.
For the only reliable source of power-adders that have been developed for this engine, WITH THE EXISTING LIMITATIONS IN MIND (and they are severe limits not to be crossed) have a chat with http://www.greendieselengineering.com and look at what they offer. They are the ONLY SOURCE for an upgraded turbo kit, and one that I highly recommend. They also offer engine and transmission tunes that increase the longevity as well as the power of the entire system.

Cheater chips that only interface with a couple sensors, or mucking about in the dark with blind changes... That is a super-fast way to send your engine to the scrap yard. Trust me on this one - the internals just CANNOT HANDLE IT if you aren't aware of the limits.
Author:  ROCK! [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
I know this engine can't take much, and I appreciate your input. I'm not talking about a lot more air, just a little bit. Iv looked at GDE's kit it it seems like a good answer to my turbo issue. I have samco's on the Jeep, so I'm sure its not hoses. I haven't done any chips, or electronic mods at all. I don't know how I would loose power other then the turbo. Iv had it on a cheap-o scanner, and the only code I got was the glow plug I just replaced. I'm going to my uncles shop tonight, and he has a motus scanner. I'm gonna plug her in and see what happens.
Author:  click23 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
There is a third hose you need to take a look at, most people miss it. This one runs from the air box to the turbo. They tend to rot out on the turbo end, under the hose clamp, you will have to take it off to check it. Taking the samco hoses off and checking them will take less than ten minutes, I just don't see a reason to check them just to make sure.
Author:  click23 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Do you have any codes? If it is not a hose it could be the MAP sensor.
Author:  ROCK! [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
click23 wrote:
There is a third hose you need to take a look at, most people miss it. This one runs from the air box to the turbo. They tend to rot out on the turbo end, under the hose clamp, you will have to take it off to check it. Taking the samco hoses off and checking them will take less than ten minutes, I just don't see a reason to check them just to make sure.


I replaced that hose less then 6 months ago, when I replaced the big hoses. The only code I have is from the maf being unplugged. I had a low voltage on 1 code, but I replaced the GP and the code went away. I cleaned the map last weekend after this all started. I figured it was just dirty sensor, or air filter. Nothing I did changed the way it runs better or worse. I'm gonna be taking everything apart this weekend, and hopefully its a simple fix. However, I still need a new intercooler ether way. I know its leaking, and glueing it didn't help. I got the cracks sealed at the top, but within a month, new cracks opened up lower. It's barley losing anything from the cracks, so I'm sure it's not the whole problem. I really would like to find a completely aluminum intercooler, but no one makes anything for the Liberty.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
If you are concerned about the turbo, then remove the Airbox to Turbo hose at the turbo, and check sideplay and play along the axis of the unit.

HAve you checked the MAP and the MAF sensors? I am assuming that you have changed the air filter.....

Another cause of loss of performance is clogging of the turbo vanes. I'd check the turbo actuation first and make sure you are getting full travel of the vane actuator.
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
When my turbo went, I had no play. I did have messed up vanes and spinning the turbo, you could feel a spot where it was hanging up.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Author:  ROCK! [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
I've checked all the sensors, and replace the air filter. I haven't yet gotten into the turbo itself to make sure the veins arent clogged, or checked shaft play. I'll be doing all that Saturday morning. I have a small oil leak from the turbos return tube, the tubes seems to have pulled away from the block and is not sealed. That makes me worry, because I have no idea how. I'm sure the vibration could have caused it, but when you try to put it back in it won't stay. It's almost like the tube is bent. :shock:

I had the scanner hooked up tonight, and nothing's changed. The $50,000 scanner didn't tell me anything that the $50 scanner didn't already. I'm even checked the calipers, tire pressure, and all that to rule out all the possibilities.
Author:  papaindigo [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Comments:
1. I agree with geordi - these turbos don't generally "start to fail" rather they just fail and can take an engine with them. Check turbo shaft for play (a bit in/out is ok but no more than a hint side to side is allowed) and look for scrapped tips on the blades (can happen if too much side play or with a glow plug fragment on the way thru) as those may be a hint that failure in on the near horizon.
2. loss of power l'd look at loose boost hose clamps; you say the intercooler is leaking and even a small leak can rob power (FYI there is a recent post string about an all metal intercooler replacement); boost pressure solenoid bad; bad vacuum lines to turbo vacuum control; gummed up turbo variable vanes; leak at FCV connection/EGR connection/intake connection. Any of those can bleed boost and power on if the vanes are not working right the turbo can over boost or provide little to no boost.

The turbo oil return line to block connection is a simple slip fit into a rubber grommet and not a true "seal" so a minor leak is possible but harmless other than you need to keep an eye on oil level and of course use the proper rated oil.
Author:  ROCK! [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
I took everything apart this weekend, and the turbo seems fine. No shaft play at all, it spins freely, and I see no damage at all. I can't see any reason for power loss other then the small intercooler leak. :banghead:

Do you have a link to the all metal intercooler? I looked for a min, but gave up because I'm at work.
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Metal intercooler pending production discussion is at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72029&hilit=intercooler
Author:  ROCK! [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Thanx for the link, I'll be keeping an eye on that for sure.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Damm man, you are just not having luck with radiators and intercoolers.

On a side note, I picked up some TJ moabs from a guy in the spring who was aware of you and your diesel jeeps.

Small world.
Author:  ROCK! [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Sir Sam wrote:
Damm man, you are just not having luck with radiators and intercoolers.

On a side note, I picked up some TJ moabs from a guy in the spring who was aware of you and your diesel jeeps.

Small world.



The radiator issue was just a fluke, I mean how often does a pulley separate from its shaft? As for the intercooler, Iv glued it, re crimped it, and still have a leak where the upper hose goes on. I think its just me, for some reason I'm not ment to have any extra money :ROTFL:


Who was it you got the wheels from, did he tell you BS stories about me? I know a lot of Jeepers, most don't like me :ROTFL:
Author:  Sir Sam [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Time for a new turbo
Nope no stories. He saw that I had a CRD and mentioned you and your diesel ZJ swap.
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