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Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73868		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  StoneFoust [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Hello, my name is Stone. I am new to this forum and I am also a new owner of a Liberty CRD. I have read up on some different posts on this forum and I have already ran into issues with my Jeep, so here is the story. I am the 3rd owner, bought literally 2 weeks ago. 130,000 miles on it. The previous owner has already changed out the timing belt at 99,000 miles (he noted that when he did the change he did NOT change anything else while in there as far as the water pump or pulleys, etc.) Why he didn't I have no idea, but it is what it is. Anyways, with that being said.. I got up two mornings ago, getting ready for work and I go outside to start up the Jeep. It started fine and thought nothing about it obviously.. the temp. outside was around 10 degrees. So I gave it some time to warm up like always and anyways took off later and got going down the road. I went to turn on the defrost because normally by that time the heater is blowing hot air. So I turn it on and the air coming out is ICE cold. I was surprised by it because normally it is hot by then, so I look at the temp. guage and it is showing that it is to normal operating temp. So I keep driving like normal and before long the temp. begins to rise pretty fast and about the time I get to work the guage is all the way on hot. I get out and pop the hood and look at the coolant, and all I see is it boiling like crazy. It didn't look like I had lost much if any though? Anyways, I take it home on a trailer and look at the coolant again and see that it is almost completely empty. I am stumped as to what is going on with it and I am trying to figure out if it is the headgaskets or if for some reason it is the water pump that has failed (that should've been replaced). Any of your guys' help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
A few thoughts..

To begin: possibly it had air during the timing belt service and ran low? If it was consistently overheating due to low coolant, it may have continued to 'boil off' coolant every time you shut off the engine (steam escapes under pressure, taking coolant with it) and eventually becomes low enough to notice.

The first hint was no heat in the cabin - often the case with low coolant.

Whoever did the timing belt may have forgot a hose clamp - check all the fittings around the viscous heater (pump on top, passenger side), thermostat, etc.

Check to be sure they didn't reverse the hoses to the viscous heater - that can divert cool coolant to your in-cabin heater rather than hot. It's possible as the engine, coolant reservoir, EGR coolant feed/return, and viscous heater hoses all come together in pretty much one place.

Look for leakage around the EGR - a coolant line runs to and from it across the top of the engine also.

Look at the radiator to see if they dinged it during service (easy to do), or perhaps a road hazard/rock has done so since.

Stop running the engine when you know the coolant is low! Fill it immediately and don't drive unless it's full. The risk of a secondary failure such as warped heads and damaged head gaskets and engine are much more likely unless the coolant is full, and until the problem is identified and solved.

There is an oil cooler that uses coolant on the passenger side block, below the thermostat.

Inspect them all. Consider getting the bright yellow dye to put into your coolant - it responds to UV and makes tracing small leaks easier. It shows up under UV even after it's dried from engine heat.

If none of the above identifies the leak - a good shop can test for exhaust gasses in the radiator (signs of a head gasket failure).

If it's too late and the head gasket is gone - you'll need to replace it (check other, recent threads on this) and check the head for straightness before re-installing.

Best case - a small, persistent leak in one of the hoses or EGR.

Worse - a failed head gasket.

Worst - R&R both head gasket and head if the damage is sufficient to have warped the aluminum head.

Rule out the easy/inexpensive issues first and save the shop charges for the big ones... if necessary.

Mark
Author:  kjjet [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
First i read that the t-belt was changed at 99k and now 130k. Not changing your water pump at 99k is not a problem, they last for alot longer and will leak first.

Your problem:

1. Make sure you have no anti-freeze in the oil.
2. You need to fill the anti-freeze. But to do this you must bleed the system during filling.

See post by papaindigo

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69413&p=742196&hilit=thermostat#p742196

After start and look for leaks. Report findings
Author:  amslube [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Is your coolant concentration high enough to prevent the radiator from freezing at 10* ambiant temperature? I saw this same thing happen years ago during a cold snap....low coolant concentration, heater blew cold air with engine overheating, due to a frozen radiator.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
amslube wrote:
Is your coolant concentration high enough to prevent the radiator from freezing at 10* ambiant temperature? I saw this same thing happen years ago during a cold snap....low coolant concentration, heater blew cold air with engine overheating, due to a frozen radiator.


You beat me to it. I have to second what amslube said. This description is classic for having a coolant concentration too low. It will freeze in the peripheral lines and radiator. If there is enough ethylene glycol it will freeze into a somewhat plastic solid which usually won't crack the block or split the radiator. The freeze point of zerex G-05 at 40% is only -12F.

Here is the chart: http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_g05.pdf
Author:  StoneFoust [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
So I have went to the parts store and got some anti-freeze. I filled the tank up to the fill cold mark, and started the Jeep.. it started fine and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. I let it run for a pretty good amount of time and the temp never got warm, although the engine and exhaust I could feel was warm like ti should be. Also to my surprise the heater was actually blowing hot air. On top of that the coolant slowly drained and before long it popped up saying low coolant again. I could not see any visible leaks coming from anywhere either. So as it seems right now the temp gauge will not come off the cold mark, and I lose coolant but I see it drain no- where.
Author:  racertracer [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Check your oil level, if its above the fill mark then the coolant is draining in into the pan.

Indicating a possible head gasket problem or a cracked cylinder head.
Author:  StoneFoust [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Is it a possibility that it could be a bad t-stat? I forgot to mention that when it ran fine the temp. showed at the 1/4 mark, and from what I have read it should be at the half mark, correct? That leads me to believe the thermostat could be the issue.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
StoneFoust wrote:
Is it a possibility that it could be a bad t-stat? I forgot to mention that when it ran fine the temp. showed at the 1/4 mark, and from what I have read it should be at the half mark, correct? That leads me to believe the thermostat could be the issue.

Did you check your oil level yet?????
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
X3 on checking the oil.

If that is high then you know where the problem lies.

If not, then do the cold start pressure check.

Oh yes, make sure you buy HOAT coolant like Zerex G5.......
Author:  StoneFoust [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Update for the day: I have checked the oil level and there was no sign of it having anit-freeze in it, nor was it too full. So I am assuming that about the only thing that it can be is the thermostat. I am going to get a new one and swap them out.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
StoneFoust wrote:
Update for the day: I have checked the oil level and there was no sign of it having anit-freeze in it, nor was it too full. So I am assuming that about the only thing that it can be is the thermostat. I am going to get a new one and swap them out.

The missing antifreeze is going somewhere... Gotta find out where. I don't think a thermostat would be your issue, and to lose that much that quickly is not normal...
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
Frozen coolant.
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
If you are experiencing an undetectable coolant leak, here is something else to check for that has happened to our CRD's.

1. Undetectable water pump leak: from underneath the vehicle look up towards the back and front of the water pump.... check for cream/rust colored dried up fluid trails on the pump and below along side the block. A member was in a frontal accident that caused an undetectable fluid leak at the water pump, all looked good from above, the vehicle was repaired less the new water pump that led to a blown head gasket.

2. Stripped lower bolt at Thermostat: I did it. Be careful torqueing the lower bolt on the thermostat, I unknowingly stripped the block threads on the small bolt.... make sure you use the longer 3/4" long bolt and not the 7/16" long one that is meant for the top at the bracket. They are the same size threads but using the smaller one while torqueing will strip the threads, not enough meat on the bolt to go deep in the block.

This will cause a fast flowing coolant leak that evaporates quickly at high speeds and becomes undetectable, possibly leading to a head gasket failure if not caught ahead of time.

3. Leak at EGR valve. Check for loose deteriorated coolant hose at EGR valve. The coolant hose breaks down overtime at the clamp due to excessive heat from the block, the hose becomes malleable.

I replaced both with a heavier duty heat resistant coolant hose and new spring clamps. It's tight quarters to work around and you will need to remove the battery, the fuel head assembly and possibly the elbow, or try access from below.

Long arms are a good thing and if you can work without sight, then more power to you.


4.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
StoneFoust wrote:
Update for the day: I have checked the oil level and there was no sign of it having anit-freeze in it, nor was it too full. So I am assuming that about the only thing that it can be is the thermostat. I am going to get a new one and swap them out.


Both Mike and Racetracer have given excellent advice; suggest you pay it heed. A tstat will NOT leak as you have described.

You should do the following:

1) do a cold start pressure test to see whether pressure is building up in the cooling system.
It is possible to have coolant sucked out through a bad hg and not go into the sump.

2) if that is negative, then RT's advice on leak tracing is excellent. He speaks from experience.
Author:  StoneFoust [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
I believe there was a misconception on what I had said, but either way.. I have replaced the thermostat and it has fixed the problem, the temp. sets where it should..and the heater will pretty much melt your face off now.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
I strongly suggest that you keep a close eye on coolant levels, and that you do a cold start pressure check as previously advised. Bubbling coolant tanks and empty coolant reservoirs are NOT normal. :shock:

With that, I'm done commenting on this.
Author:  racertracer [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible blown headgaskets.. or something else?
StoneFoust wrote:
and the heater will pretty much melt your face off now.


If it gets hot enough to melt anything by way of the heater core, then you still have a problem.

And if it was bubbling,then you don't have a normal condition. Don't kid yourself.
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