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If it skipped time, and it appears it may have, you will have suffered broken rocker arms and lifters as well. This is guaranteed because this is an interference engine, and those parts are designed to break to prevent valves breaking or punching holes in the pistons.

Secondly, you can get the timing of valves and crankshaft correct by lining up the marks, but the injection timing requires a computer hookup and software, for the very reason you have noted. The engine will run if simply timed via "mark and pray" but not as well as it should, and both power and mileage will suffer if you skip the electronic part of setting the timing.

naturist wrote:

Agreed I replaced the rockers and lifters but the pins still fit in the cams and crank but the keys in the cams aren't perfectly straight across from each other

Crazy8svt wrote:

naturist wrote:

Agreed I replaced the rockers and lifters but the pins still fit in the cams and crank but the keys in the cams aren't perfectly straight across from each other

If the slots in the cams aren't lined up perfectly across from each other then I don't know how you could possibly be in time.

If someone had torqued the sprocket bolts with the VM.1052 and VM.1053 in place without using the VM.1085 or a suitable alternate then they could have stretched the pin holes in the engine block, but other than that I don't see any reason why your cams would not line up perfectly unless your cams/timing, etc are totally shot.

You can put them in and miss the flex plate (as I did and others have as well) but all that requires is that you remove the pins and rotate the crank 180 degrees and the pins will go back in and the flex plate hole will be lined up.

Maybe the Cams got twisted? Although you would seee some serious visual evidence of that, and there would probably be a hole in the intake if that were the case as well.

Those key slots (as you put it) are machined into the cams if I recall, there's no way that part can "slip" or change without everything being way off, and I don't know how you could put the pins in the proper holes in the cams, unless they're home made, not long enough, not being put in right, etc.

I'm at a loss to say how that ended up that way, but if it's true and your cams are truly locked into the pins and your "KEY SLOTS" aren't lining up, I would recommend 2 new Cams.

Provide some picture evidence?

That looks exactly right. The pins will allow them to move a little, but they should be facing each other just like that.

Remember that this is not how you set your timing, but your cams are currently set up correctly at ninety degrees past top dead center.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Naturist,

What is with the "electronic" part of injection timing. I have been on this forum for a long time and this is the first reference I have heard of this.

Several people have reported taking their motor apart, presumably for the first time since it left VM, including me, and have found the injection pump pulley marks to NOT be lined up. Is this related to this?

(Keith told me to put mine back together with the injection pump pulley lined up with the factory marks.)

PLEASE advise........

Thanks,

DOC

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:11 am ]
Post subject:	timing ?
So if I have the cam pins,crank pin and the fuel pump marks aligned it should be in time correct. Reason for asking is when I pulled the cam gears off the key way on the end if the cams weren't straight across from each other like many have said it should be and when I took my timing cover off the tensioner was half inch off it's mark so I'm affraid it my have skipped time.

Author:	naturist [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
If it skipped time, and it appears it may have, you will have suffered broken rocker arms and lifters as well. This is guaranteed because this is an interference engine, and those parts are designed to break to prevent valves breaking or punching holes in the pistons. Secondly, you can get the timing of valves and crankshaft correct by lining up the marks, but the injection timing requires a computer hookup and software, for the very reason you have noted. The engine will run if simply timed via "mark and pray" but not as well as it should, and both power and mileage will suffer if you skip the electronic part of setting the timing.

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
naturist wrote: If it skipped time, and it appears it may have, you will have suffered broken rocker arms and lifters as well. This is guaranteed because this is an interference engine, and those parts are designed to break to prevent valves breaking or punching holes in the pistons. Secondly, you can get the timing of valves and crankshaft correct by lining up the marks, but the injection timing requires a computer hookup and software, for the very reason you have noted. The engine will run if simply timed via "mark and pray" but not as well as it should, and both power and mileage will suffer if you skip the electronic part of setting the timing. Agreed I replaced the rockers and lifters but the pins still fit in the cams and crank but the keys in the cams aren't perfectly straight across from each other

Author:	Hexus [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
Crazy8svt wrote: naturist wrote: If it skipped time, and it appears it may have, you will have suffered broken rocker arms and lifters as well. This is guaranteed because this is an interference engine, and those parts are designed to break to prevent valves breaking or punching holes in the pistons. Secondly, you can get the timing of valves and crankshaft correct by lining up the marks, but the injection timing requires a computer hookup and software, for the very reason you have noted. The engine will run if simply timed via "mark and pray" but not as well as it should, and both power and mileage will suffer if you skip the electronic part of setting the timing. Agreed I replaced the rockers and lifters but the pins still fit in the cams and crank but the keys in the cams aren't perfectly straight across from each other If the slots in the cams aren't lined up perfectly across from each other then I don't know how you could possibly be in time. If someone had torqued the sprocket bolts with the VM.1052 and VM.1053 in place without using the VM.1085 or a suitable alternate then they could have stretched the pin holes in the engine block, but other than that I don't see any reason why your cams would not line up perfectly unless your cams/timing, etc are totally shot. You can put them in and miss the flex plate (as I did and others have as well) but all that requires is that you remove the pins and rotate the crank 180 degrees and the pins will go back in and the flex plate hole will be lined up. Maybe the Cams got twisted? Although you would seee some serious visual evidence of that, and there would probably be a hole in the intake if that were the case as well. Those key slots (as you put it) are machined into the cams if I recall, there's no way that part can "slip" or change without everything being way off, and I don't know how you could put the pins in the proper holes in the cams, unless they're home made, not long enough, not being put in right, etc. I'm at a loss to say how that ended up that way, but if it's true and your cams are truly locked into the pins and your "KEY SLOTS" aren't lining up, I would recommend 2 new Cams. Provide some picture evidence?

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
Hexus wrote: Crazy8svt wrote: naturist wrote: If it skipped time, and it appears it may have, you will have suffered broken rocker arms and lifters as well. This is guaranteed because this is an interference engine, and those parts are designed to break to prevent valves breaking or punching holes in the pistons. Secondly, you can get the timing of valves and crankshaft correct by lining up the marks, but the injection timing requires a computer hookup and software, for the very reason you have noted. The engine will run if simply timed via "mark and pray" but not as well as it should, and both power and mileage will suffer if you skip the electronic part of setting the timing. Agreed I replaced the rockers and lifters but the pins still fit in the cams and crank but the keys in the cams aren't perfectly straight across from each other If the slots in the cams aren't lined up perfectly across from each other then I don't know how you could possibly be in time. If someone had torqued the sprocket bolts with the VM.1052 and VM.1053 in place without using the VM.1085 or a suitable alternate then they could have stretched the pin holes in the engine block, but other than that I don't see any reason why your cams would not line up perfectly unless your cams/timing, etc are totally shot. You can put them in and miss the flex plate (as I did and others have as well) but all that requires is that you remove the pins and rotate the crank 180 degrees and the pins will go back in and the flex plate hole will be lined up. Maybe the Cams got twisted? Although you would seee some serious visual evidence of that, and there would probably be a hole in the intake if that were the case as well. Those key slots (as you put it) are machined into the cams if I recall, there's no way that part can "slip" or change without everything being way off, and I don't know how you could put the pins in the proper holes in the cams, unless they're home made, not long enough, not being put in right, etc. I'm at a loss to say how that ended up that way, but if it's true and your cams are truly locked into the pins and your "KEY SLOTS" aren't lining up, I would recommend 2 new Cams. Provide some picture evidence? I'll post a picture in a few hours to show you the keys as for the cam they appear to be fine as do the hole for the pins

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timing ? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75060	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
well what do you think does this look right to you

Author:	papaindigo [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
Those notches are not true key ways or timing marks (the cam pins and flywheel pin are used to set the timing) but when the pins are in place those notches are supposed to be in that position according to my notes and pictures although I've not been that far into the engine yet.

Author:	Hexus [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
That looks exactly right. The pins will allow them to move a little, but they should be facing each other just like that. Remember that this is not how you set your timing, but your cams are currently set up correctly at ninety degrees past top dead center. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
Hexus wrote: That looks exactly right. The pins will allow them to move a little, but they should be facing each other just like that. Remember that this is not how you set your timing, but your cams are currently set up correctly at ninety degrees past top dead center. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 Okay great I'm going to leave everything the way I took it off and hope it's right all pins are on and I'm hoping the fuel pump is good

Author:	DOC4444 [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
Naturist, What is with the "electronic" part of injection timing. I have been on this forum for a long time and this is the first reference I have heard of this. Several people have reported taking their motor apart, presumably for the first time since it left VM, including me, and have found the injection pump pulley marks to NOT be lined up. Is this related to this? (Keith told me to put mine back together with the injection pump pulley lined up with the factory marks. I did and it runs better/has more power than prior, but the crank/cam timing may be better with a fresh TB.) PLEASE advise........ Thanks, DOC

Author:	Crazy8svt [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
DOC4444 wrote: Naturist, What is with the "electronic" part of injection timing. I have been on this forum for a long time and this is the first reference I have heard of this. Several people have reported taking their motor apart, presumably for the first time since it left VM, including me, and have found the injection pump pulley marks to NOT be lined up. Is this related to this? (Keith told me to put mine back together with the injection pump pulley lined up with the factory marks.) PLEASE advise........ Thanks, DOC I have read several threads saying the fuel pump marks may or may not line up I've also read that it doesn't even matter that it is all in the computer and the fuel pump provides a constant psi and the computer sends the fuel in but I'd play it safe and line it up

Author:	kjjet [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
See correct timing: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75029

Author:	papaindigo [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: timing ?
For what it's worth or not I think we are mixing apples, oranges, and water melons here with respect to "timing" 1. mechanical valve and piston timing is set so, to be blunt, those 2 things don't occupy the same space on an interference engine and so pistons go up/down at the proper point in the valve open/close cycle. On the CRD this is what the 2 cam and 1 crank pin are used to set. I imagine it's somewhat similar on an overhead cam gasser as I believe all overhead cam engines are interference engines. On an older gas pushrod engine the valve and piston timing is set by marks on the timing gears (usually chain driven) which are important but at least those engines are NOT interference engines. 2. electronic ignition timing is set independently of valve and piston timing. On a gasser it's set to determine when the spark plugs ignite the fuel in the combustion chamber relative to the piston up/down cycle. On a "dumb" gas engine with just a carburetor there is no real setting of fuel delivery to the combustion chamber but I presume on a "smart" gas engine with computerized ignition and fuel injection that there is some adjustment of ignition and fuel delivery/amount timing "on the fly" so to speak as engine operating conditions change. Our CRD operates much like a "smart" gas engine at least with respect to fuel injection to the cylinder head, which is partially why fuel injector serial # matters to the ECU. At this point my knowledge breaks down. I know diesel ignition is by compression not spark so I don't know if the interaction between the ECU, fuel delivery, and mechanical engine timing is such that combustion timing can be changed on the fly or not. 3. fuel delivery. I presume fuel injection (gasser or diesel) engines (especially high pressure ones) are somewhat sensitive to consistent fuel deliver line pressure at the injection site. To what extent the design (3 piston presumably) or the CRD CP3 and its cycle (timing) matters in maintaining line pressure I frankly don't know. About all I can say is: a. if the CP3 has 3 pistons then given that the CRD has 4 pistons/injectors there is no possible way the CP3 fuel pulse can always occur when the injectors are not firing. Unless I'm totally missing something simple arithmetic says that's impossible although it's certainly possible that the pulse mostly occurs between injectors firing. b. the CP3 does have a "timing" mark but it does not line up on every or every other engine revolution in "time" with the mechanical timing pins. Is it possible to mechanically rotate the engine enough to line that mark up AND insert the 3 mechanical timing pins; almost certainly it is. Is doing so critical to correct timing? I frankly don't know BUT being a generally cautious person, especially about things I don't fully understand, my recommendation is if the CP3 timing mark is not lined up when the 3 mechanical timing pins are installed then before removing the timing belt mark a CP3 pulley tooth and the adjacent housing and make sure those marks are adjacent when the new belt is installed. If you do this on an OEM TB install then the CP3 is in the same "time" position its always been. If the CP3, for whatever reason, is not timed that way I don't have a clue how to accurately retime it although I suppose simply free rotating it so its timing marks line up should be close enough. For what it's worth I suspect a simplistic explanation of part of what the GDE tune does in mess with the ECU timing of ignition and fuel delivery/amount to improve combustion efficiency and that's the referenced electronic timing.

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