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Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75232		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  parker [ Sun May 12, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
I have the GDE Ecotune and TCM tow tune. I started developing a shudder between shifts and assumed it was the T/C and had it replaced with the RL037142AA T/C. The filters were also replaced at this time.

Symptoms are that the the TCM tune has 3rd gear lockup from what i understand and when it does this I get a terrible shudder. The shudder can also be felt slightly in 4th and 5th and can also be felt when down shifting. If i accelerate fairly hard through 3rd it is only a slight shudder. The T/C change had absolutly no effect on this and I can accelerate as hard as I want in the higher gears and not induce a shudder I would associate with the T/C.

Anyone else experience this shifting issue. Any help will be appreciated.
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Sun May 12, 2013 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
TC shudder happens at lockup, between 1500 and 2000 RPMs and heavy on the throttle, usually climbing or towing. At least mine does.

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Author:  ebbnflow [ Sun May 12, 2013 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
I'd check your drive shaft u-joints.
Author:  parker [ Sun May 12, 2013 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Thanks for the replies so far. Replaced ujoints couple of days ago. Did not help.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sun May 12, 2013 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Did you replace the pump when you did the TC?
Author:  parker [ Sun May 12, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
No, I did not replace the pump. Are these symptoms of a bad pump?
Author:  Auberon [ Wed May 15, 2013 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Wondering:
How far have the original tranny components travelled?
And......How much fluid was changed out when the T C was changed?
and The shudder occurs while fully engaged and driving or actually during the shift process?
Please.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Wed May 15, 2013 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
If the shudder occurs when the TC locks in on a steep grade and if you replace the torque convertor for this reason replace the pump also. It is most likely failed or failing when this happens. Plus it is cheap insurance that your transmission will be good for quite a while.
Author:  parker [ Wed May 15, 2013 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
The transmission has 135k miles.
WhenTC was changed they also changed the filters so I don't know exactly how many quarts but enough to replace what is lost with the pan removal and TC change.
When 3rd great locks up I get a teeth chattering shudder. From that point on I have a mild vibration that seems to be slightly worse at gear change. I know that I have the usual rear trailing arm bushings worn and possibly the rear ball joint that could explain some of the continuous vibration. I also feel a slight shudder in the 5th to 4th and 4th to 3rd downshifts.
I can not seem to get TC shudder as people describe on this board by accelerating up a hill in 5th. I have already changed the TC and unfortunately did not see any of the post suggesting changing the pump at the same time I wish I would of now. The TC change did not make any change in the symptoms I am having.

I bought some Lucas tranny fix and am going to see if that makes any difference in the symptoms. If it does then I know I have a pressure problem. If it doesn't then I don't know.

Thanks for any help.
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
parker wrote:
I also feel a slight shudder in the 5th to 4th and 4th to 3rd downshifts.


Thats interesting because the TC unlocks at each downshift and does not re apply untill you
give it some throttle.
(that is on a stock TCM, not sure about a GDE TCM)
Author:  parker [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
That is one of the things that lead me to believe it is not the TC. But considering the history of these TC's I can not 100% rule it out.
Author:  Brianawd [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Did you use oem trans filters or After market. I just replaced my trans filters and it fixed all the issues I was having. The person who owned the liberty befor me had the trans serviced and they used aftermarket filters. Make sure you are using OEM trans filters.
Author:  etravlr [ Wed May 15, 2013 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Long story shory my liberty was delayed for the last week at the trans shop after a rebuld. They had to re-remove the tranny to find a problem after rebuild.

The issues turned out to be a "bad' aftermarket filter and nothing to do with their rebuild.

Rich
Author:  Auberon [ Sat May 25, 2013 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Hey Parker. Been mulling over your transmission issue.
How goes it? Did the Lucas treatment help?
I re-read this thread......what ATF was used for top-up? Could cause less crisp shifting - hence the possibility of glaze if other than ATF +4 has been used at any time in its service history??? of course - speculating.
If it wasn't ATF +4 then it might (stress might) be glazed clutches as shift quality as you describe it is so very localised.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat May 25, 2013 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Classic KJ CRD TC shudder ONLY occurs at about 58 mph at modest throttle with the stock TCM when the trans has shifted to 5th and the TC is being told to lock by the TCM. The springs in the "original" TCs are not strong enough to firmly lock under these conditions, resulting in "chatter" or "shudder" which can be immediately eliminated at that moment by either backing off the throttle or flooring it. The so-called "euro" has stronger springs which eliminates this SPECIFIC problem. It is worse, the more torque you have available, such as with a good ECU tune.

With the GDE TCM tune, the TC locks at 35 mph, and STAYS locked at that speed and above, unless you go beyond 3/4 throttle in ANY gear. Keith has managed to get the trans to shift VERY smoothly with the TC never unlocking (a brilliant piece of work, BTW). Also, with the GDE "tow tune" the shift to 5th is delayed to 70 mph.

Unfortunately, you did not understand this when you replaced your TC. What you are experiencing is shudder at almost all shifts, both up and down, at a wide range of speeds. This is NOT the classic KJ CRD problem that is solved by a simple TC swap. This was born out by the fact that replacing the TC made no change, whatsoever, in your symptoms. It would appear that your TC is not remaining firmly locked through each shift, as the GDE TCM tune is instructing it to do.

You have not told us what happened, in detail, when the problem first surfaced, when you added the GDE TCM tow tune, at what miles, etc., though we know you are at 135K, now. Also, if you apply half throttle in between gears, when no shifting is involved, does it shudder? Please provide this info, asap.

In order to properly diagnose your problem, you may need to temporarily install a stock TCM. At least, that will eliminate the issue of making the trans shift in a way it was not originally intended to do (keeping the TC locked throughout each shift).

Have you spoken to Keith about this?

DOC
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Sat May 25, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
DOC4444 wrote:
Classic KJ CRD TC shudder ONLY occurs at about 58 mph at modest throttle with the stock TCM when the trans has shifted to 5th and the TC is being told to lock by the TCM. The springs in the "original" TCs are not strong enough to firmly lock under these conditions, resulting in "chatter" or "shudder" which can be immediately eliminated at that moment by either backing off the throttle or flooring it. The so-called "euro" has stronger springs which eliminates this SPECIFIC problem. It is worse, the more torque you have available, such as with a good ECU tune.

DOC

Hey DOC, I have gotten mine to shudder in 3rd and 4th with some foot to the pedal and accelerating up a hill, even without the trailer. Seems the shudder happens in the 1600 to 1900 pr so range. I emailed Keith a while back, with concerns, and forgetting his exact words, but it was something like keeping it out of the shudder range.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat May 25, 2013 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
That is the RPM range, but most people only have experienced it at 5th lockup. It can occur in lower gears if the TC springs/clutches are getting really weak.

DOC
Author:  parker [ Sun May 26, 2013 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
I had some mild shudder before the tune although I never could get it to do it in fifth grear lock up as described. Unfortunately I assumed it was the torque converter. I went ahead and got the tune at about 128k miles. No change in shudder at the time but it has progressively gotten worse.

I can not induce shudder with the throttle except at around 38 or 40 when I believe it is 3rd gear lock up. The slower I accelerate the worse it is but once it starts then I can make it worse by accelerating. Accelerating fast through this point and it just vibrates a little. I have a constant mild vibration after lock up in all gears.

I installed a container of Lucas transmission treatment. This was recommended by a friend that the thicker oil should help if it is a pressure problem and help narrow down that it is something internal. When it is cold the Lucas does seem to help but it was not as definitive as I was hoping it would be to help diagnosis the problem to being an internal transmission issue.

I have severe torque steer from the rear from bad bushings. I am replacing all rear bushings and the rear ball joint. I think this may contribute to some to the vibrations I am getting. I have seen on boards it is possible that the bushings are bad enough to change pinion angles and cause vibrations but I highly doubt that is causing the shudder I am experiencing. They need to be changed anyway so we will see what effect that has on it.

Thanks for the continued help guys. We will get to the bottom of this no matter what it cost me. :banghead:
Author:  parker [ Sun May 26, 2013 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
I did speak with Keith and he seemed concerned about my front pump. He didn't seem confident and wanted me to get a quick learn performed by the dealer. I have not done that yet just cause it seems like a long shot and cost about a 100 bucks
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun May 26, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace T/C still have Shudder between shifts
Yes, you need to take care of the rear end issues before anything else. You indicated you replaced the driveshaft u-joints, but did you confirm the slip joint is sliding freely? That is a chronic source of KJ CRD driveline vibration.

DOC
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