LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Rocker arms if they break

There isn't any pressure to speak of under the valve cover, but trying to install an 'inspection' port is just asking for problems. The cams will keep the rockers compressed while they are in place, and I strongly doubt you would be able to discern anything just from looking at the oily blackness that will be the inside of that valve cover.

'as long as the rockers remain lubricated' is really the point here. You have absolutely no control of that, because of how Chrysler and VM designed the top of this motor. The oil comes from inside the lifter wells, is pumped into each lifter (which then rises to absorb valve lash) and as the lifter / rocker is compressed on each rotation... A little bit squirts out the top of the lifter and sprays into oily mist inside the valve cover.

This is where that mess coming from the CCV is formed, and why you will make a HUGE mistake if you open the oil filler cap with the engine running.

How exactly the individual needle bearings are supposed to get lubricated or the cams themselves... Is a mystery to me. There are NO oil jets under the valve cover, so the only source of oil for the cams / rollers... Is that oily spatter? Anyone still wondering why the rollers eventually fail out? If there is a better answer to this design and how the rollers get oiled, I'd love to hear it. After tearing that thing down 3 times on my own engine, and seeing the cams STILL CLEAN after I had wiped them off the first time... I can't figure out what the Italians were thinking when they designed this engine like this.

Moving parts need oil. Continuously and constantly. This is engineering 101. Obviously, they failed that class.

Hi guys

I am from South Africa, just joined the Forum. I see that you really know your Jeep engines.

I had a timing belt tension pulley failure, causing 8 rocker arms to break... The workshop that had previously installed my new timing belt screwed up when they put the tension pulley back. So after I had the failure, they replaced my Jeeps broken rocker arms with second-hand rocker arms. From day 1 after the installation, there has been a metal clinking noise coming from the engine. Now, I don't know how the lifters and rocker arms actually work, but I think that the clearances between the lifters and the rocker arms are not correct.

I replaced the engine oil and the filter, but to no avail.

Any help on this matter will be very useful!

thanks,

Ryno Kruyswijk
2003 KJ 2.5CRD

If a rocker goes you will never know unless it possibly drops the valve when it goes. But that is very unlikely I lost 3 rockers and never knew it till it blew the head gaskets from the pressure build up. It also destroyed the cam on that side to the point I had 6 mm deep runs in them. I was 3k into my oil change.

Why the heck is the failure rate so much less across the pond?

painemann wrote:

Why the heck is the failure rate so much less across the pond?

Configuration for emissions control?
Maintenance schedule?
We just got a bad batch over here?

It would interesting to know if there is a correlation between manufacture date and failure.

....due to those geniuses at epa.

Turning this around, if Chrysler couldn't introduce effective emissions controls that met the mandated standards without damaging the engine in this manner then maybe they shouldn't have bothered. They must have done wear analysis and testing as part of their product introduction and should have been able to predict this issue. Of course they did, and they also realised that the majority would fail outside the warranty period. They should have never sold us this crap.

Have other manufacturers released engines that self destruct while trying to meet the required NOx levels. Do VW, MB, Cummins etc. have this issue?

They must have done wear analysis and testing as part of their product introduction and should have been able to predict this issue. Of course they did, and they also realised that the majority would fail outside the warranty period.

Author:	jlgail4309 [ Wed May 29, 2013 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Rocker arms if they break
Whats the worst case. You do the same thing as a timing belt giving out. Or it real bad. I always spend some money on the truck every year. I've been wanting to do glow plug anyways. Should a top end be on the list for 160000 mile crd.

Author:	MedicPatriot [ Wed May 29, 2013 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you putting off a timing belt change and worried about the rockers breaking from the TB breaking or are you just worried they might break from wear? If the timing belt breaks the rockers are going to need replacing and that is going to be A LOT more money. If the rockers break on their own just because they are old then you probably will just have rocker damage and need to replace them. It seems the valves usually don't get damaged on this beast, as I have found out. ^ then again you should probably wait for the people that know what they're talking about to chime in

Author:	Billy M [ Fri May 31, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
Replacing the rockers is WAY more involved than changing the glow plugs. If you rockers are fine, I personally wouldn't change them. There are plenty of high mileage CRD's out there with the original rockers. I tend to go the "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" route. If you are suspecting some wear issues with them, or want the peace of mind with new rockers, have at it. I wouldn't dive into that job without verifying bad rockers though. Billy

Author:	cevans [ Fri May 31, 2013 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
+1 Check them first - you'll see some wear on the rollers if they are on their way out. If they have stayed properly lubricated they should last forever, really.

Author:	Glend [ Fri May 31, 2013 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
Is there an easy way to chrck them, say like putting an inspection camera into the intake cover area? I've been thinking of adding an inspection port to my cover, which obviously has to stand up to the pressure involved.

LOST JEEPS http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Rocker arms if they break http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75418	Page 1 of 2

Author:	thermorex [ Fri May 31, 2013 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
My own : if you have the time, don't mind spending the money to buy the parts, and want to keep the car more, I'd say it is worth. If you also use the jeep as a daily driver, worse thing that can happen is you get stuck in the middle of the road, but other than that, you still end up installing a new set of rockers if they fail. I think it's a matter of preference, I would prefer doing the job when I choose to rather than when I am forced to (if that happens). I replaced mine and honestly, at 125K they seemed fine, maybe a little play in the roller but not something that would cause a failure. Before I replaced them, when engine was warm, I heard a metallic tic-tic-tic, now, I don't hear that noise that loud. I think it is impossible to say do it or don't it, I think at the end it is all about what you want and how picky are you when it comes to your own peace of mind, lol.

Author:	geordi [ Fri May 31, 2013 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
There isn't any pressure to speak of under the valve cover, but trying to install an 'inspection' port is just asking for problems. The cams will keep the rockers compressed while they are in place, and I strongly doubt you would be able to discern anything just from looking at the oily blackness that will be the inside of that valve cover. 'as long as the rockers remain lubricated' is really the point here. You have absolutely no control of that, because of how Chrysler and VM designed the top of this motor. The oil comes from inside the lifter wells, is pumped into each lifter (which then rises to absorb valve lash) and as the lifter / rocker is compressed on each rotation... A little bit squirts out the top of the lifter and sprays into oily mist inside the valve cover. This is where that mess coming from the CCV is formed, and why you will make a HUGE mistake if you open the oil filler cap with the engine running. How exactly the individual needle bearings are supposed to get lubricated or the cams themselves... Is a mystery to me. There are NO oil jets under the valve cover, so the only source of oil for the cams / rollers... Is that oily spatter? Anyone still wondering why the rollers eventually fail out? If there is a better answer to this design and how the rollers get oiled, I'd love to hear it. After tearing that thing down 3 times on my own engine, and seeing the cams STILL CLEAN after I had wiped them off the first time... I can't figure out what the Italians were thinking when they designed this engine like this. Moving parts need oil. Continuously and constantly. This is engineering 101. Obviously, they failed that class.

Author:	thermorex [ Fri May 31, 2013 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
I agree with Geordi, there is no way you could see something useful with a inspection port, this is a pic right after I took out the valve cover (and gasket), just looking at the rollers there is no way you can see anything useful, even with the cover off, unless something is really already messed up. From what I saw from ppl that had rocker failure, the roller gets smashed and pushed down toward the cylinder head (in which case they would probably break very soon) and the cam will push and create wear on the side of the roller. I couldn't see how much wear and tear this rollers had before I let them soak in gasoline for a while:

Author:	RynoKruyswijk [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
Hi guys I am from South Africa, just joined the Forum. I see that you really know your Jeep engines. I had a timing belt tension pulley failure, causing 8 rocker arms to break... The workshop that had previously installed my new timing belt screwed up when they put the tension pulley back. So after I had the failure, they replaced my Jeeps broken rocker arms with second-hand rocker arms. From day 1 after the installation, there has been a metal clinking noise coming from the engine. Now, I don't know how the lifters and rocker arms actually work, but I think that the clearances between the lifters and the rocker arms are not correct. I replaced the engine oil and the filter, but to no avail. Any help on this matter will be very useful! thanks, Ryno Kruyswijk 2003 KJ 2.5CRD

Author:	painemann [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
geordi wrote: There isn't any pressure to speak of under the valve cover, but trying to install an 'inspection' port is just asking for problems. The cams will keep the rockers compressed while they are in place, and I strongly doubt you would be able to discern anything just from looking at the oily blackness that will be the inside of that valve cover. 'as long as the rockers remain lubricated' is really the point here. You have absolutely no control of that, because of how Chrysler and VM designed the top of this motor. The oil comes from inside the lifter wells, is pumped into each lifter (which then rises to absorb valve lash) and as the lifter / rocker is compressed on each rotation... A little bit squirts out the top of the lifter and sprays into oily mist inside the valve cover. This is where that mess coming from the CCV is formed, and why you will make a HUGE mistake if you open the oil filler cap with the engine running. How exactly the individual needle bearings are supposed to get lubricated or the cams themselves... Is a mystery to me. There are NO oil jets under the valve cover, so the only source of oil for the cams / rollers... Is that oily spatter? Anyone still wondering why the rollers eventually fail out? If there is a better answer to this design and how the rollers get oiled, I'd love to hear it. After tearing that thing down 3 times on my own engine, and seeing the cams STILL CLEAN after I had wiped them off the first time... I can't figure out what the Italians were thinking when they designed this engine like this. Moving parts need oil. Continuously and constantly. This is engineering 101. Obviously, they failed that class. I always wondered why there is so much darn mist when the cap is off and running... yeah I don't take the cap off much with it running!! Why the heck is the failure rate so much less across the pond?

Author:	thermorex [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
RynoKruyswijk wrote: Hi guys I am from South Africa, just joined the Forum. I see that you really know your Jeep engines. I had a timing belt tension pulley failure, causing 8 rocker arms to break... The workshop that had previously installed my new timing belt screwed up when they put the tension pulley back. So after I had the failure, they replaced my Jeeps broken rocker arms with second-hand rocker arms. From day 1 after the installation, there has been a metal clinking noise coming from the engine. Now, I don't know how the lifters and rocker arms actually work, but I think that the clearances between the lifters and the rocker arms are not correct. I replaced the engine oil and the filter, but to no avail. Any help on this matter will be very useful! thanks, Ryno Kruyswijk 2003 KJ 2.5CRD I know this isn't what you want to hear but unfortunately there isn't a way to adjust them, you will have to live with the noise or replace the rockets with new ones. I had the same tic-tic-tic noise and I only got rid of it with rocker arm replacement. I think the noise is because of the roller mostly though.

Author:	geordi [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Rocker arms if they break
Ditto what was already said. You have no way of knowing which used rockers might have already been marginal without checking them yourself. Unfortunately, my opinion of anything noisy is that it is already on the way out, with the remaining lifespan up for debate. I will say that noises won't fix themselves in any way other than expensively. The result will be eventual broken rockers, but when they break, they could score the cam lobes. That is MUCH more expensive, and do you really want to risk further damage? Time to start planning for another rocker job. Bummer. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Author:	audiboy86 [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
If a rocker goes you will never know unless it possibly drops the valve when it goes. But that is very unlikely I lost 3 rockers and never knew it till it blew the head gaskets from the pressure build up. It also destroyed the cam on that side to the point I had 6 mm deep runs in them. I was 3k into my oil change.

Author:	thermorex [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
audiboy86 wrote: If a rocker goes you will never know unless it possibly drops the valve when it goes. But that is very unlikely I lost 3 rockers and never knew it till it blew the head gaskets from the pressure build up. It also destroyed the cam on that side to the point I had 6 mm deep runs in them. I was 3k into my oil change. Oh boy, that sucks... couldn't you "feel" any loss of power due to the valves not opening properly? Or was that unnoticeable?

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	audiboy86 [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
It was a very slight change but I thought it was just the turbo on the way out till the head gasket let go. Then I had to pull the headed and found the turbo on the way out 3 broken rockers and the destroyed cam. So I did some polishing a little porting on my spare intake and spare exhaust manifold. And got a fresh turbo so after all of that I am back to figuring up a custom intake.

Author:	dirtmover [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
painemann wrote: Why the heck is the failure rate so much less across the pond? Configuration for emissions control? Maintenance schedule? We just got a bad batch over here? It would interesting to know if there is a correlation between manufacture date and failure.

Author:	thermorex [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
dirtmover wrote: painemann wrote: Why the heck is the failure rate so much less across the pond? Configuration for emissions control? Maintenance schedule? We just got a bad batch over here? It would interesting to know if there is a correlation between manufacture date and failure. I also think the oils we have here are not that good as european ones. But as you said, i think the main reason is worse egr soot here versus europe, due to those geniuses at epa.

Author:	dirtmover [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
thermorex wrote: ....due to those geniuses at epa. Turning this around, if Chrysler couldn't introduce effective emissions controls that met the mandated standards without damaging the engine in this manner then maybe they shouldn't have bothered. They must have done wear analysis and testing as part of their product introduction and should have been able to predict this issue. Of course they did, and they also realised that the majority would fail outside the warranty period. They should have never sold us this crap. Have other manufacturers released engines that self destruct while trying to meet the required NOx levels. Do VW, MB, Cummins etc. have this issue?

Author:	dieseldoesit [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
dirtmover wrote: Turning this around, if Chrysler couldn't introduce effective emissions controls that met the mandated standards without damaging the engine in this manner then maybe they shouldn't have bothered. They must have done wear analysis and testing as part of their product introduction and should have been able to predict this issue. Of course they did, and they also realised that the majority would fail outside the warranty period. They should have never sold us this crap. Have other manufacturers released engines that self destruct while trying to meet the required NOx levels. Do VW, MB, Cummins etc. have this issue? no no no, it is always the fault of the government...

Author:	geordi [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rocker arms if they break
dirtmover wrote: They must have done wear analysis and testing as part of their product introduction and should have been able to predict this issue. Of course they did, and they also realised that the majority would fail outside the warranty period. This is an interesting thought to ponder. Initially, the CRD was offered with a 7/70 warranty, then all of a sudden they dropped it to 3/36. If this change and the subsequent blanket exclusion from the lifetime warranty packages of ALL diesels was because of some discovery of these massive failures.... Wouldn't that constitute fraud? They would have been knowingly selling a product that had a serious design flaw, yet selling it anyway. I'm sure I'm not alone in the thought that something like that would put me off of their product permanently - and it has.