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| Blown Head Gasket Discussion http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75727 |
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| Author: | Hexus [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
While I have not suffered this, I'm really prone to worry and wonder what has caused so many of the recent head gasket failures. I would like to have an honest discourse and promise that I will not make any fun or light of anyone's hardship. So please be honest, even if you did make a big mistake, because it will effect all of us. It's easy to sit back and say you must have been towing 8,000 lbs. with the engine up a hill in the dead of winter with Dexcool coolant in your radiator and that's why it happened, but I'd honestly like to see the facts. Have you had a blown head gasket? Please share the following: Mileage when it happened: Type of Coolant (be honest): Do you drive it like you stole it?: Were you towing?: Ever done Rockers/Lifters?: Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: Oil and change interval: Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: What type of weather was it?: Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): Thanks for your input, I'm just curious if there's a pattern or method to this madness that I can help prevent for myself. Thanks, All of us. |
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| Author: | Hexus [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
26 views, not 1 comment? Wow, are we that embarrased guys? Just PM as 2 others already have then, I just want the info for my own preventative maintenance. Thanks! |
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| Author: | thermorex [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Lol. Thank god I don't have any input from personal experience, but I'm sure more people (myself included) would appreciate the results of this data collection. And it could be possibe from 26 views, only 2 had this issue. |
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| Author: | jburford [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Mileage when it happened: 71000 Type of Coolant (be honest): OEM (Coolant had been flushed by dealer) Do you drive it like you stole it?: normal driving Were you towing?: First noticed when towing Ever done Rockers/Lifters?: no Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: no Oil and change interval: 6000 Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): GDE hot tune within a 2000 miles of first instance of coolant loss. Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: Thermostat working fine. Engine never over headed. What type of weather was it?: winter and summer Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): Primary symptom was rapped loss of coolant thru over flow, and coolant reservoir retained pressure even when engine was cold. John B |
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| Author: | audiboy86 [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Mileage when it happened: 138000 Type of Coolant (be honest): OEM (Coolant had been flushed by dealer) Do you drive it like you stole it?: Wheel It/drag it a little/tow with it/and normal Were you towing?: No but towed a lot with it Ever done Rockers/Lifters?: no Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: Yeah but I think that was the cause of my head gasket failure. Three on the exhaust side making pressure build and blown the head gasket and over pressurize the exhaust system. Oil and change interval: 6000 Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): GDE hot tune and EHM Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: Thermostat working fine. Engine never over headed. What type of weather was it?: Spring Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): Coolant over flow and steam and sweet coolant smells when stopped. Also cooling system remained pressurized well after cooling off. |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
I had 2 head gasket failures. 1st head gasket failure. Mileage when it happened:103,000 Type of Coolant (be honest): Hoat Do you drive it like you stole it?: Sometimes. Were you towing?:No Ever done Rockers/Lifters?:NO Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: No Oil and change interval: 4500 Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.):GDE hot tune, EHM Was your Thermostat working when it happened: Yes Did you have an In-Line Mod thermostat: No What type of weather was it?: Spring Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc: Never ignored, just kept popping up. Pressure build up under cap. Second head gasket failure happened soon after the head gasket was replaced. Same conditions as above. |
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| Author: | LMWatBullRun [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Metal head gaskets do not 'blow'. Not by themselves. Something has to move. Fiber HG can blow, and carbon fiber HG can blow but not steel. Either the bolts are stretched or the head is crushed, and IMO, the latter is the proximate cause of "HG failure" in the vast majority of cases with this motor. My thought is that the head gets overheated, and because the 'TTY' bolts do not have enough bearing area the head is crushed against the bolt head and yields, eventually allowing coolant and exhaust leakage. I worked on another member's engine recently and suggested that he check the torque on the head bolts. ( I suggested studs, but the budget would not allow that.) We set the wrench for 125 FP, which is low for these head bolts, and several took at least 15 or 20 degrees to get to torque; IIRC a couple went more than 30 degrees. That is a LOT of play. Bear in mind, this engine was down NOT for HG leakage issues; we checked this while we had the valve cover off for other work. |
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| Author: | Drewd [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Could the hot tune be a cause? |
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| Author: | dirtmover [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Drewd wrote: Could the hot tune be a cause? Yeah, this stood out like a sore thumb to me. While we cannot rule it out, based on a data set of three I think it would be premature to jump to this conclusion. Compared the general population of CRD owners we probably have an extremely high proportion of owners that have "tuned" their vehicles visiting this site on a regular basis which is going to skew the statistics. |
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| Author: | flash7210 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Could be a combination of GDE tune and stretched head bolts causing the head to lift. I think MedicPatriot blew his head gasket after the water pump started leaking. |
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| Author: | DOC4444 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
The tune idea makes no sense to me unless someone is running at full power all the time. 99.9% of the time GDE tuned CRDs are not producing more power as they are being driven than they would be if the tune was not present. DOC |
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| Author: | Hexus [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
It would also be interesting to know if the people who experienced head gasket failure did their own work, and if so whether or not they noticed an actual gasket failure, or just blow-by from stretched bolts, as referenced. I.E. I wonder if a part of the gasket showed failure or was missing in a certain area, or the gasket was 100% in tact and fluid got by it because of the bolts, heat/cool dynamics, etc. I checked all of mine when I had the intake off for my rockers/lifters and they were all properly torqued to the service manual values, I couldn't get 1 of them to move a millimeter tighter, so that really makes me question a lot of the comments I see and is primarily the reason for my asking. |
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| Author: | audiboy86 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
My head gasket was intact with no visible signs of damage except a hot spot from exhaust blow by. And the hot tune should be doing nothing but helping with the head gasket issues seeing as it is cutting the EGR out of the system. I think the first three reported on here being hot tunes is just a fluke. And plus you have to remember most people that keep this motor long enough to have to do major repairs are going to modify it in one way or another. |
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| Author: | thermorex [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
What makes me wonder is if this issue is related at some point to egr soot. Definitely is related to the abuse the crd takes, or at least that's a factor. Since vm motori is concerned more with european markets, I wonder how those engines "blow" the gasket there. |
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| Author: | CATCRD [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
I can't imagine how EGR would be related to hg failures at all. Makes no sense. Head not torqued right or high cylinder pressure is more likely. |
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| Author: | flash7210 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
CATCRD wrote: I can't imagine how EGR would be related to hg failures at all. Makes no sense. Head not torqued right or high cylinder pressure is more likely.  Wasn't there a recall on the Ford PS 6.0 about head bolt torque, lifting heads, head gasket failure or something like that? |
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| Author: | R2.0 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
I am wondering if there isn't a materials problem here, as follows: 1) In his head stud thread LMW pointed out that torquing the head studs to generally accepted levels produced deformation in the head, including distorting a lifter bore. That should *not* be happening. The ARP studs he used are used on VW TDI diesels all the time, and torqued to substantially higher levels than LMW used. And there haven't been any reports (that I'm aware of) of the head yielding in that manner. For that matter the stock VW head bolts are "torque to yield" type, where the steel itself is yielding before the head does - that's the whole principle on how TTY fasteners work. 2) As he pointed out above, the bolts on a factory torqued head appear to be loose. This could be due to poor factory assembly or *something* yielding/relaxing over time. My hypothesis? The engineers specified the wrong aluminum alloy for the head castings. This becomes apparent during pre-production when they start having problems with the head distorting when the bolts are torqued. So instead of scrapping all those head castings, they back down on the specified torque until the distortion goes away. Fast forward as the engines get some miles on them. The head has been heat cycling, and one day the head gets hot enough to lower the yield strength of the alloy below the pressure being exerted by the bolts. The aluminum yields locally and the head lifts away from the block, allowing combustion gasses to escape, which causes more local heating, etc. |
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| Author: | jburford [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
The head gasket leaks do not appear to be gasket failure, sketched bolts, or over heating. The culprit appears to be the cylinder liner height tolerance during manufacture. My cylinder 1 sleeve has a difference height from the deck by ~0.003 to 0.005. This was just a quick measurement could a bit more or less. The lack of good sealing on cylinder 1 existed since the engine was assembled. It was not until increased load on the head was applied with the GDE hot tune that the coolant leak started. If you have never over headed the engine and have rapid coolant loss through the over flow then this likely what is going on. Studs instead of bolts for the head might have the additional clamping capacity to have stopped the leak. If you get a "low coolant" warning, have pressure under the coolant cap when engine is cold, find that the coolant reservoir is empty, and the overflow reservoir has fluid, then replace the head bolts with studs. If the leak comes back pull the head, have it inspected, and measure the cylinder sleeves height to the deck. If the head is warped have it machined. If the sleeve heights are not equal; pull the sleeves and re-shim, but at this point you might consider a long block reman. from Chrysler that has a 3 yr. 100000 mile warranty. John B |
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| Author: | naturist [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
Mileage when it happened: diagnosed and treated at 150,000 mi Type of Coolant (be honest): MOPAR Hoat Do you drive it like you stole it?: not usually Were you towing?: at the time the problem was diagnosed, no, but I do tow Ever done Rockers/Lifters?: No Did you have to do Rockers/Lifters after it happened?: No Oil and change interval: Mobil 1 5w-40 almost exclusively, 6,250 miles Major Modifications (e.g. EHM, ProVent, etc.): Provent at 11,000 miles, GDE eco at 130,000 miles Was your Thermostat working when it happened, or did you have an In-Line Mod?: Stock t-stat, and yes What type of weather was it?: warmish, June, 80s Any evidence at all you ignored? (Low coolant, etc?): Engine had overheated many times from around 80,000 miles when towing in hot weather. Only once hot enough to get the alarm bong, that somewhere under 100,000 miles. Several small coolant leaks had been found and fixed by replacement of hoses and such here and there. I thought this was another such, until I noticed the pressure under the cap on a cold engine and the bubbling of the coolant bottle while cold but idling. |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Head Gasket Discussion |
I want to add an other incident that happened to a fellow CRD owner in my area. The vehicle was experiencing low coolant lights and he just filled the reservoir with coolant and brushed it off as flukes. The light came on sporadically within a 3 month span and increased in frequency as time went on. The engine never overheated, and it had 160,000 miles on the odometer 14 months ago. The owner said that his maintenance schedule was meticulous, he followed the "B" version as stated in the manual. It was a daily commuter car, 120 miles round trip every day. He was puzzled as to why it happened, just as puzzled as some of us were when it happened to us. After getting the HG and cylinder head replaced by the dealer, he sold it. I believe that re-torqueing the OEM TTY head bolts during timing belt replacement, should be a mandatory part of maintenance. |
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