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Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
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Author:  mrwaibel [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Ok so I have now owned a CRD now for 2 weeks 142 miles and here is the story. The good news is that it came with a 60 day full powertrain warranty so its definately still covered. So I no longer than got it off of the lot and the check engine light came on and I just figured that it was no big deal so I went ahead and took it back to my shop and hooked it up to my code reader and it came up with code P0101 MAF signal negative deviation. I looked through the receipts and the dealer that I bought it from had it serviced before I bought it and they have records that the check engine light was on and and that they took it to Tom O Brien Chrysler Jeep and they had the same code P0101 and done the following work to it prior to me buying it. They inspected all air intake and turbo charger tubes for damage, dirt, carbon, or debris none found inspect air filter for dirt or restrictions air filter ok then check intake system components for leaks with smoke machine none found finally they replaced the MAF sensor. So today I finally got an appointment with Tom O brien Jeep and they looked at it again since they were already worked on it and their certified diesel mechanic said that most likely its a bad rocker or cam shaft and that it will cost about $700 to fix it. I told him while your in their go ahead and replace anything that appears wore.
Author:  user113 [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Hope it works out for you, lucky you have that warranty.

The "diesel mechanic" at the dealer, is that a real diesel mechanic? If so, he or she probably works mostly on Cummings engines, as it is unlikely that there is sufficient demand anywhere for a true Jeep "diesel mechanic." Otherwise, it's probably just another Jeep mechanic that by luck of the draw got to work on yours and is therefore the defacto "diesel mechanic" that day. Might explain why the problem wasn't fixed right the first time.
Author:  mrwaibel [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
when I went back in the shop to talk to him I noticed he had a Mercedes Sprinter Van that he had the injectors out of so I guess that made me feel better. He told me he works on mainly German and European diesels and hes the only one certified for working an Ferrari engines at the dealership. The 2.8 CRD is extremely rare here in Indiana and many dealers only got their hands on a select few of them when they were available and some dealers didn't get any at all, unlike some eastern states that seem to be flooded with them on autotrader. When I was standing at the service counter I overheard the service manager tell someone and point to my Liberty and say they didn't make many of those in a diesel.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
If they end up doing the rockers, may as well replace the timing belt also, regardless of mileage (unless it is brand new or can be proven new...)
Author:  mrwaibel [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Yep I just got confirmation today its the famous rockers that are wore out, Iam trying to get the mechanic to replace the timing belt and recomended parts while he's at it. Iam sure glad it came with a 30 day warranty. I know that the dealer that sold it to me isn't happy because the price that I wanted to pay for it $8500 Iam going to get out of them after this is done. They told me that they already had way more than that in it before putting it up for sale. Iam sure that this is the reason the previous owners decided to trade it in.
Author:  mrwaibel [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
I think the first thing Iam going to do when I get it back is do an EGR delete or ECO tune. If anyone has advice or specific vendor that I should use to do this Iam up for it.
Author:  Hexus [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Did you take it to Franklin?
Author:  arengant [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
mrwaibel wrote:
I think the first thing Iam going to do when I get it back is do an EGR delete or ECO tune. If anyone has advice or specific vendor that I should use to do this Iam up for it.

The "ECO" from GreenDiesel Enginering is also a EGR delete... well partially. Get it and be happy!
Author:  Big Montana [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Yes get the GDE tune. You won't regret it. Best money I've spent on the whole Jeep and I have avoided many major problems.
Author:  mrwaibel [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Ok here is an update. Things have taken turn for the worst recently. The dealership thats working on it Tom O'Brien Chrysler Jeep called me today and told me that its going to cost about $2400 to fix the CRD because two of the rockers are bent and one lifter and they told me that Chrysler changed the design of the rockers and lifters and you have to purchase a kit with all of them and it costs $1200 with all of the parts and hardware to upgrade it. Since that its still covered under the 30 day warranty from the dealer that I bought it from I called the guy from the warranty department and he said that Iam on my own on the repairs and I said "no it clearly states in the 30 day warranty policy that the vehicle is covered for all internally lubricated parts and the lifters under the valve cover are definately internally lubricated" he then changed his tone and said "I will buy the vehicle back before I will pay that kind of money to have it rebuilt for you but its your responsibility to pay for the reassembly and bring it back to me in running condition". I reminded him that he had already agreed to pay $800 two weeks ago to Tom Obrien chrysler who is now caught in the middle of this to take off the valve cover and inspect the components to write up the repair estimate and now hes saying that hes willing to pay that $800 but no more. So Iam now trying to decide what to do with him next.
Author:  profdlp [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
That is awful. I really hope it works out for you. :(
Author:  car0430a [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Sorry to read about your troubles.
Have you looked to source your own parts?
www.idparts.com
Author:  user113 [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
I would suggest that you DON'T waste any more time on this engine via warranty unless you are absolutely sure that the engine is completely inspected and found to be in good mechanical condition before it gets reassembled. Including, for the reason I discuss below, the cylinder with the bent rocker arms themselves.

I would suggest that if the dealer wants to buy it back, let him, but read my conditions below. That would be my first preference if I were in your shoes. Yes, CRD Liberties are very rare in this contry, even back East, in fact, they weren't even available in Maine or Massachusetts . But surely that is not the last CRD on the market.

You said two of the rocker arms and one lifter are bent. From the Service Manual:

Quote:
The rocker arms are made of stamped steel and serviced as an assembly along with the lifter. The rocker arm also has a fracture point. This fracture point is designed to prevent engine failure if the engine is not timed properly or the timing belt breaks suddenly. (Fig. 59).


Rockers and lifters don't usually just "bend," that would make me worry that something in the cylinder may have caused that dreaded piston to valve contact vicariously (like maybe a broken piece of glow plug). I suggest that you don't chance it. At least not with the motor that it currently has.

At this point, you may wish to negotiate with the dealer; the truck is not going to be worth much to him with all that is currently known, though he may well believe he can find another chump. Perhaps you can negotiate a MUCH lower price for the vehicle in "as-is" condition, then either have the engine completely investigated or find a different engine. Bent rockers and lifters on this particular motor are cause for serious concern. That would be my second preference if the redness is too much to give up.

By the way, your contract will likely not have any clause in it that states you are responsible for bringing it back to him assembled and in working order for him to buy back, unless the contract envisioned that he was selling you a piece of junk to begin with. Getting the drive train into working order is the raison d'être for the warranty the dealership gave (sold) you. The reason for his buying it back is because it either was not in working order to begin with (condition covered by warranty) or it broke during the warranty period (condition covered by warranty) and he is not willing to pay to put it into working order for you. If you agree to let him buy it back, you are doing him a favor and are likely also negotiating to void the previous contract anyway, so you can agree to whatever terms the two of you can agree on. But in this situation, since you are considering allowing him to buy it back, there's no reason you should accept any conditions that are less favorable to you than existed in the original contract. In fact, under the contract he may not even have the option to buy it back rather than of fix it. Check the fine print. If you are unsure, hire a lawyer.
Author:  mrwaibel [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
This is just like a nightmare that keeps getting worse, at the time I purchased it I thought I done everything right and looked the vehicle over really good, negotiated a fair price and covered everything, from top to bottom. I even test drove it on 2 different occasions the only thing that I overlooked is the fact that the vehicle had already been running and up to operating temp both times that I went to look it over.
Author:  mrwaibel [ Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
I will say one thing the previous owner took really good records and I know everything that has been done to the vehicle before I purchased it. Yes it has the origional ceramic glow plugs to my knowledge. A correction the diesel mechanic is using the term failed rockers, so Iam going to go and inspect them for myself, as of now Iam thinking and hoping that its going to be excessively worn rollers on the rocker arms from the EGR not being disabled and hopefully not damaged rockers from the pistons hitting the valves since the vehicle had power and was idling smooth. Oh and the mechanic also confirmed that the timimg belt had been replaced not long ago as recorded in the maint records.
Author:  profdlp [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
user113 wrote:
...If you are unsure, hire a lawyer.

I agree wholeheartedly. As much as I hate to see the law getting dragged into anything if it is possible to avoid it, in this case I think it's necessary.

See a lawyer for a consultation. He can read the contract and tell you exactly where you stand. This shouldn't cost much, relatively speaking at least.

Then go back to the original dealer. I would not mention the lawyer at this point. Based on what the lawyer has told you, you will know what is the bare minimum you can expect to receive. If the dealer offers anything less, this is the time to tell him that your lawyer has reviewed the contract and assures you that your rights will stand up in court should it come to that. Hopefully, the dealer makes you a fair offer and the subject of your legal consultation will never need to be mentioned. If nothing else, knowing your rights in detail will make you much more confident if the dealer tries to pressure you into accepting a bad deal.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
It can very likely be repaired and appear to run fine. However, once the pistons have hit the valves, you just never know what is going on with the bottom end. Safest thing is to get your money back. If you keep it, I would at least remove the head and carefully inspect the piston tops and replace all the valves that made any contact. Also, take all the valves out and clean them plus check guides and stems.

Again, sorry......

DOC _
Author:  Billwill [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
profdlp wrote:
user113 wrote:
...If you are unsure, hire a lawyer.

I agree wholeheartedly. As much as I hate to see the law getting dragged into anything if it is possible to avoid it, in this case I think it's necessary.

See a lawyer for a consultation. He can read the contract and tell you exactly where you stand. This shouldn't cost much, relatively speaking at least.

Then go back to the original dealer. I would not mention the lawyer at this point. Based on what the lawyer has told you, you will know what is the bare minimum you can expect to receive. If the dealer offers anything less, this is the time to tell him that your lawyer has reviewed the contract and assures you that your rights will stand up in court should it come to that. Hopefully, the dealer makes you a fair offer and the subject of your legal consultation will never need to be mentioned. If nothing else, knowing your rights in detail will make you much more confident if the dealer tries to pressure you into accepting a bad deal.



Yep, I agree with all this^^^^^ talk to your Lawyer and get rid of this vehicle as soon as is possible! :shock:
Author:  MRausch82 [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Yeah, time for a lawyer. This sounds like the dealer is trying to get away without honoring the warranty, which I am sure you signed. I have heard of a few folks now that have had issues with dealers on the CRD. Glad I work on my own and don't have a warranty that I have to worry about...
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newly Purchased Flame Red CRD Engine Trouble Already
Might be worth considering a more nuanced approach:
1. inspect the rockers; that you can do for nothing. As I understand it if the engine is out of mechanical time and the pistons contact one or more valves the rocker pivot point, for lack of a better term, is designed to collapse to prevent piston and valve damage. That said there are other known failure modes for rockers most commonly a failed pivot pit. There are ample pictures on the forum of the results of both situations. So a) if the rocker pivot points are collapsed then I would agree that pulling the head for piston/valve inspection may be merited but b) if the pivot points are not collapsed but rather you have experienced wear induced failure or the rockers pulling the head is not needed. In the latter case a full set of OEM rockers/lifters are only $359.95 + shipping from idParts not $1,200.
2. it would be prudent to double check, you nickel, the glow plugs if you have the ceramic ones. As I recall they don't usually break without throwing a CEL and they can be checked (squeeto has a post on this as I recall) with a simple volt/ohm meter for proper function. Cost to check without any need to pull them should be minimal. If they are good fine; if they are not good I'd worry about broken tips and piston/valve damage.
3. to lawyer or not. Do #1 first. After that lawyer may or may not be the best approach if all you want is them to honor the warranty. In which case consider a) small claims court and/or b) local news media consumer affairs folks not to mention whomever licenses the sellers business.

Toss it all back in the sellers lap as is and get your money back may require a lawyer depending on small claims court limits in your area. From my none legal perspective you purchased a vehicle with a warranty that covers certain things (my bet is the warranty is a self warranty covered by the seller not a 2n party purchased warranty hence the seller's attempt to weasel out of paying for repairs out of his pocket - heh that's "his" problem not yours); the seller has already clearly agreed to pay for diagnosis under the warranty; at least the rocker failure is covered; he either pays for the fix or not; if not he is refusing to honor the terms of the sale....

Good luck
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