LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Head is off and now the questions start.

Unfortunate the head gasket kits come with the bolts so the $370 is a net add. The ARP studs are the bomb on the big boom Cummins and TDI engines but what value do they bring to a stock engine? The TTY bolts are engineered to have the proper pressure for a stock head and maintain it. Since I am getting the head surfaced I should not be dealing with having to pull a head into alignment.

This seems to get to the core of the problem of head leaking, the studs can pull down harder so a mildly warped head can be saved in engine. If you knew which of the TTY bolts was the problem I bet another 30 degrees would do the same thing. My pet theory is that the factory didnt use a proper angle on assembly and the bolts never reached the proper elongated state. I should measure all mine.

(snip) (I am particularly interested in the details of removing the ridge that is typically present.)

DOC

User113 is my first stop, tomorrow morning. I will try to remember to ask him to video it with my phone, and we will get lots of pictures.

LMW - if you are willing, can I borrow that cutter for OCR's studs in Boston? I would mail it back on or about the 20th on my way back.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Jim,

I want to be there for the stud replacement on Saturday.

PM me.

racertracer wrote:

Jim,

I want to be there for the stud replacement on Saturday.

PM me.

You have a PM, but the head studs are either tomorrow in DC or Tuesday in Boston. Saturday is drive to NYC and grab one in NJ on the way, but that is just a belt job.

OK Fine I will do the studs. But mostly because Keith at GDE says he likes them. I also may keep this after I am done with all of this BS. I can't imagine what could go next but.................

FYI Found them for $143 + 15 shipping for 2.

http://autoplicity.com/products/1833058 ... delFitment

Name Price Quantity Total
ARP VW Audi 1.9L turbo diesel head stud kit
SKU: ARP-2044706 $143.39 2 $286.78
Sub-Total $286.78
Shipping $15.15
Order Total $301.93

Author:	cmpbiker [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Head is off and now the questions start.
Before I get started first I would like to publicly proclaim that I want to punch the guy who designed the EGR system right in the face. That little bolt on the back of the head to hold the tube? That was a nice touch of sadistic engineering. So the head is off and the good news is that I can't find any cracks. I also cant find any obvious distortion on the head. Cylinder 1 is obviously the steam chamber, really clean and some cheese on the piston. Good case for water injection by the way. I used the ruler and flashlight method to look for warpage and the very minimal light seeping under the edge shows a consistent surface. I am going to take it to a machine shop and let the experts give me an opinion. Head bolts felt consistent on their release so it wasn't a case of obviously loose bolts. Gasket looked good but I can see the edge around the cylinder looking different on #1, could be where the leak was getting in. Going to order the head removal gasket kit from Id-Parts right now that I know it is a no hole gasket. Also going to take the turbo to a shop for a look over. Spend some quality time on the intercooler sealing it up. Now the big question, ARP studs. Not sure if the $370 for 18 studs is worth it but then again I don't want to come back here again or pass it off to someone else. I am not ever planing on overboosting or doing anything beyond the GDE tune so the factory bolts as installed in a zillion vehicles should work. I refuse to believe that they would not handle normal pressures. What do you think? PS I am amazed at how simple this engine is to work on. The big issue is the crap hanging off of it blocking access. I appreciate that almost everything comes down to a 8-10-13-15 socket, except for the odd decision to use 11 on the head bolts.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
I am sure everyone is surprised to hear that I recommend studs. To my mind, the cost of studs is trivial next to the cost of an engne, and the studs will clamp the head more reliably and firmly than the factory bolts. Buy two kits and you can get away for under $350. Then you can sell me the two leftovers!

Author:	papaindigo [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
If it was mine and I was in there because of a water leak into a cylinder I wouldn't hesitate a second over getting the ARP studs now that what to get has been identified. I assume the original head bolts should not be reused, I certainly would not reuse them, so the "extra" cost of ARP studs is really only the amount in excess of the cost of a set of OEM head bolts whatever that is.

Author:	cmpbiker [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
Unfortunate the head gasket kits come with the bolts so the $370 is a net add. The ARP studs are the bomb on the big boom Cummins and TDI engines but what value do they bring to a stock engine? The TTY bolts are engineered to have the proper pressure for a stock head and maintain it. Since I am getting the head surfaced I should not be dealing with having to pull a head into alignment. This seems to get to the core of the problem of head leaking, the studs can pull down harder so a mildly warped head can be saved in engine. If you knew which of the TTY bolts was the problem I bet another 30 degrees would do the same thing. My pet theory is that the factory didnt use a proper angle on assembly and the bolts never reached the proper elongated state. I should measure all mine.

Author:	bugnout [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
You can order the gasket alone from Green Diesel Engineering, I think he wants $110 shipped. saves about 20 bucks over the IDParts gasket with bolts

LOST JEEPS http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Head is off and now the questions start. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76628	Page 1 of 3

Author:	geordi [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
The factory bolts DO NOT STRETCH. I put one of those bolts into a jig and attempted to compress a tube of solid steel using that bolt and a simple nut. At 250 lb-ft of torque, the flutes on that 11-mm head rounded off. The pressure was so great, that the NUT was being compressed into the hole on the jig! I know what a TTY bolt is supposed to feel like. I used a set of brand-new Mopar head bolts on my CRD when I was attempting to chase down the ticking that turned out to be the bottom end. Not one ever reached the yield point while being installed. I have installed VW's TTY bolts, and they have an obvious neck that is created when they stretch. You cannot miss the feeling when it happens either. These factory bolts might as well be solid grade 5 bolts, as much as they claim to be TTY bolts. I do not believe they are, and will NEVER use the 'turn this many degrees' method again on any engine. If I can install studs with a known torque value... That is what I will do. I disposed of any VW TTY bolt I could when I was doing my most recent timing job on my TDI, they are not to be trusted. Please use whichever head fasteners you feel most comfortable with on your CRD, but my suggestion is to use the ARP studs. No matter what you use, please torque them to 130 lb-ft directly around the pistons, and 125 lb-ft on the outer edges. This is in accordance with the specs that LMW worked up, and I trust his engineering mind implicitly. The factory bolts (should you choose to use them) will not stretch, so we might as well stop calling them TTY bolts for this application. FYI: From what LMW discovered in his research and testing... the 250lb-ft that I got that bolt to before the flutes rounded off... Would have been almost twice as much force needed to completely CRUSH the aluminum cylinder head like an empty beer can.

Author:	DOC4444 [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
So if the VM bolts do not stretch at 250 lbs/ft, what benefit do the ARPs offer over them at 130 lbs/ft? DOC

Author:	geordi [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
That is certainly a fair question. I like the ARP studs for the known quantities of their metallurgy, strength / failure ratings, and the butter-smooth highly engineered threaded surfaces. In the TDI application, replacing the head TTY bolts with ARP studs has been proven on multiple vehicles to quiet the engine and make it VERY happy and easy to start. Why is this? I have no concrete evidence, but I suspect that the TTY bolts (because of the stretch-neck I have witnessed) are capable of marginally stretching further due to heat cycling, the pounding of normal combustion on the underside of the head... Really, does it matter? A leaking head is a leaking head. The head on the CRD... The bolts should have far more holding power than the equivalent TDI stock bolts, because they are enormous - nearly 1/2" thick. I have similar bolts holding the front pins on a 7,000 lb trailer that I have dragged around, and that hitch is conservatively rated at 8 TONS of capacity. Yes, that pintle mount might be a bit heavy-duty for the trailer, but anything worth engineering is worth OVER-engineering. Could you get away with unlocking each bolt in turn, then re-torquing it to 130 or 125 lbs and calling it a day? I'm sure you could. But when compared against the refinement of the threading from ARP... You will *KNOW* that the 130lbs on bolt #1 is the exact same as on #2, #3, and on. No variations due to rough iron threads or crap in the hole, gumming up the readings on those. To me, what you are paying for with the ARP is the precision. That is worth it. I will be putting ARP studs into my TDI when I get back from this trip, I have already bought them (Funny thing: It is the same kit for the CRD! I only need one kit however) and I will update everyone on my results... I'll probably also take a video of before / after from the same positions for comparison.

Author:	DOC4444 [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
I understand the Boston job is scheduled for ARP studs. Any chance that could be video recorded? (I am particularly interested in the details of removing the ridge that is typically present.) DOC

Author:	cmpbiker [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
OK Fine I will do the studs. But mostly because Keith at GDE says he likes them. I also may keep this after I am done with all of this BS. I can't imagine what could go next but................. FYI Found them for $143 + 15 shipping for 2. http://autoplicity.com/products/1833058 ... delFitment Name Price Quantity Total ARP VW Audi 1.9L turbo diesel head stud kit SKU: ARP-2044706 $143.39 2 $286.78 Sub-Total $286.78 Shipping $15.15 Order Total $301.93

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
cmpbiker wrote: Unfortunate the head gasket kits come with the bolts so the $370 is a net add. The ARP studs are the bomb on the big boom Cummins and TDI engines but what value do they bring to a stock engine? The TTY bolts are engineered to have the proper pressure for a stock head and maintain it. Since I am getting the head surfaced I should not be dealing with having to pull a head into alignment. This seems to get to the core of the problem of head leaking, the studs can pull down harder so a mildly warped head can be saved in engine. If you knew which of the TTY bolts was the problem I bet another 30 degrees would do the same thing. My pet theory is that the factory didnt use a proper angle on assembly and the bolts never reached the proper elongated state. I should measure all mine. The problem is that the bolts crush the head before they yield. The bolts do not yield, the head does. If the head bolts had a hardened high strength washer under them, you'd get better clamping, but the studs are better. Look at the pics in the ARP stud thread.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
DOC4444 wrote: (snip) (I am particularly interested in the details of removing the ridge that is typically present.) DOC Doc, I am going to try the milling cutter R2.0 recommended on my next build. User113 is planning to try it too.

Author:	geordi [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
User113 is my first stop, tomorrow morning. I will try to remember to ask him to video it with my phone, and we will get lots of pictures. LMW - if you are willing, can I borrow that cutter for OCR's studs in Boston? I would mail it back on or about the 20th on my way back. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
geordi wrote: User113 is my first stop, tomorrow morning. I will try to remember to ask him to video it with my phone, and we will get lots of pictures. LMW - if you are willing, can I borrow that cutter for OCR's studs in Boston? I would mail it back on or about the 20th on my way back. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Sure. Keep in mind I have not tried it yet.

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Author:	racertracer [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
Jim, I want to be there for the stud replacement on Saturday. PM me.

Author:	geordi [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
racertracer wrote: Jim, I want to be there for the stud replacement on Saturday. PM me. You have a PM, but the head studs are either tomorrow in DC or Tuesday in Boston. Saturday is drive to NYC and grab one in NJ on the way, but that is just a belt job.

Author:	racertracer [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
geordi wrote: racertracer wrote: Jim, I want to be there for the stud replacement on Saturday. PM me. You have a PM, but the head studs are either tomorrow in DC or Tuesday in Boston. Saturday is drive to NYC and grab one in NJ on the way, but that is just a belt job. See you on Tuesday morning. Raff

Author:	Leeann [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
Wish I could've made it to the DC job today, but work schedule just didn't allow for it.

Author:	cmpbiker [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
cmpbiker wrote: OK Fine I will do the studs. But mostly because Keith at GDE says he likes them. I also may keep this after I am done with all of this BS. I can't imagine what could go next but................. FYI Found them for $143 + 15 shipping for 2. http://autoplicity.com/products/1833058 ... delFitment Name Price Quantity Total ARP VW Audi 1.9L turbo diesel head stud kit SKU: ARP-2044706 $143.39 2 $286.78 Sub-Total $286.78 Shipping $15.15 Order Total $301.93 Ok Take it back, these guys are flaky. I am going to go ahead with the factory bolts and the angle method. I am considering testing the torque as I do it to get an indication of the torque value of the angles. I figure if I use my torque wrench on one of the bolts as I tighten it I could bump up by 5 pounds as I progress until I get full angle.

Author:	geordi [ Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Head is off and now the questions start.
Just buy the studs from Summit Racing, you will be much happier. OR, if you insist on the bolts, set them to 130 lb-ft around the pistons, and 125 lb-ft on the outer edges. FORGET all about the angle method, it is not precise enough because they didn't use easily identifiable angles like 90 or 45. On User113's engine, we found that the torque to release each bolt that had been set from the factory... Was WRONG! Around the pistons, the center bolts took about 120 lb-ft to crack them. BUT the outer edges? 140-145, and that was consistent across multiple bolts! This is the "precision" of the turn-the-angle method, that from the factory it can be screwed up in this way and the result is an engine that ran and did not leak... Possibly only by sheer dumb luck. I am also amazed that such torque did not crush the head in the same way that LMW discovered. The feel from the fresh ARP studs as they were installed on User113's engine was much more consistent, to the point that I could predict as I was tightening down each one, which pull of the wrench it would click on.