Extrude honed nozzles

NotPicky · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:30 pm

I've been doing some research. I have upgrade injector nozzles in both my Cummins and Powerstroke. Both those engines yielded better power and mileage. So why not our little engines. I've been talking to Brian at http://www.microflowinjectors.com about him extrude honing a set of stock nozzles. I was thinking 30% bigger but with his testing anything over 25% is just adding power and loosing economy.
So I spent some time looking up part numbers...
Bosch Injector Part# 0 445 110 217
Bosch Injector Nozzle Part# 0 433 171 888

The nozzles are available in the US. Brian quoted me $420 for 4 nozzles and $380 to extrude hone.

Anyone else interested? Maybe we can drive the cost down a little with multiple orders

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:40 pm

NotPicky wrote:

I've been doing some research. I have upgrade injector nozzles in both my Cummins and Powerstroke. Both those engines yielded better power and mileage. So why not our little engines. I've been talking to Brian at http://www.microflowinjectors.com about him extrude honing a set of stock nozzles. I was thinking 30% bigger but with his testing anything over 25% is just adding power and loosing economy.
So I spent some time looking up part numbers...
Bosch Injector Part# 0 445 110 217
Bosch Injector Nozzle Part# 0 433 171 888

The nozzles are available in the US. Brian quoted me $420 for 4 nozzles and $380 to extrude hone.

Anyone else interested? Maybe we can drive the cost down a little with multiple orders

I think the benefits will be low on a CRD engines. You're better off spending what you'd spend on the nozzle upgrade, and get a GDE tune. I think anything that puts MORE fuel into our CRD is bad long term. More carbon deposits and more troubles. These are unlike Cummins and Powerstroke engines... My :2cents:

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

MRausch82 wrote:

NotPicky wrote:

I've been doing some research. I have upgrade injector nozzles in both my Cummins and Powerstroke. Both those engines yielded better power and mileage. So why not our little engines. I've been talking to Brian at http://www.microflowinjectors.com about him extrude honing a set of stock nozzles. I was thinking 30% bigger but with his testing anything over 25% is just adding power and loosing economy.
So I spent some time looking up part numbers...
Bosch Injector Part# 0 445 110 217
Bosch Injector Nozzle Part# 0 433 171 888

The nozzles are available in the US. Brian quoted me $420 for 4 nozzles and $380 to extrude hone.

Anyone else interested? Maybe we can drive the cost down a little with multiple orders

I think the benefits will be low on a CRD engines. You're better off spending what you'd spend on the nozzle upgrade, and get a GDE tune. I think anything that puts MORE fuel into our CRD is bad long term. More carbon deposits and more troubles. These are unlike Cummins and Powerstroke engines... My :2cents:

Not true.

The issue that is different is TUNING. There a loads upon loads of files for custom tunes for so many performance mods with the strokers, Cummins, and Duramax . There can be a significant improvement to the CRD but you would need to take your CRD to Keith and live tune it for those injectors. I would not advise it without tuning.

The problem with the CRD is that it was never mass produced like the others, therefore will never generate enough demand for performance tuning and bolt on's like the hundreds of combinations of turbo/injector setups the others have to be able to make money as a company.

Not that it can't be done, but there isn't the mass market for it. :sad:

Believe me, I wish there was or I had the money to play.

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DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:59 pm

There was a lot of skepticism way back when GDE first came on the scene. I dispelled that with back to back dyno testing. If you put in the time and spend the money to produce credible proof that higher flow injectors work, others will follow.

DOC

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

DOC4444 wrote:

There was a lot of skepticism way back when GDE first came on the scene. I dispelled that with back to back dyno testing. If you put in the time and spend the money to produce credible proof that higher flow injectors work, others will follow.

DOC

True, but not enough will follow. Why do you think Keith has never pushed any performance bolts ones besides a tad bit bigger turbo. The time and effort just isn't worth the investment compared to the the now mass producing TDI's. It only took a year for AFE to come out with CAI and cat back exhaust.

I'm definitely not saying it can't be done but most who drive the CRD will never plan to go to the dragstrip or pulls. :grin:

Wouldn't that be interesting. They typically just want a little more power with reliability.

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LS12FAST4U · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:23 pm

Depends on the price and what you would get. For example if you were to get say another 30hp and 80TQ I might be interested but its about bang for the buck. I personally would not spend 800-1g for another 20ftlbs of TQ.

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

Another thing to consider is EGT's when you add bigger injectors. More fuel requires more air and better flowing exhaust.

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NotPicky · **Posted:** Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:35 pm

Thanks for the reply's and concerns. I know these engines are not in EGT trouble even with GDE's hot tune. When talking to Brian who does the injectors gave me a long explanation on how and what extrude honing does. Inside the stock nozzles are rough and porous. Thus trapping air bubbles in the tip and not atomizing the fuel spray to the fullest. If you don't go gigantic on the openings better combustion and power can be obtained. If you have a boost and egt guage installed and watch them as you travel you notice that this little diesel is prolly around 90% throttle to pull most slight upgrades. Even though it never down shifts, a little more power and efficient combustion will yield in better MPGs even better because the engine will not have to use as much throttle to run the same speed.
Check out his link it shows some pics and gives some explanation. http://www.microflowinjectors.com/MPG_Injectors.html

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

Interesting. Just wonder when the site will be not under construction.

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LS12FAST4U · **Posted:** Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:39 am

I'm interested so I say you get your injectors done and let us know how it turns out : )

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

more info on price and time frame would be nice. I just started looking into doing more mods. I have even started looking at CP3 pump mods to see if what the cummins guys do will work on ours.

pwrwagn · **Joined:** Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 am **Posts:** 192

NotPicky wrote:

I've been doing some research. I have upgrade injector nozzles in both my Cummins and Powerstroke. Both those engines yielded better power and mileage. So why not our little engines. I've been talking to Brian at http://www.microflowinjectors.com about him extrude honing a set of stock nozzles. I was thinking 30% bigger but with his testing anything over 25% is just adding power and loosing economy.
So I spent some time looking up part numbers...
Bosch Injector Part# 0 445 110 217
Bosch Injector Nozzle Part# 0 433 171 888

The nozzles are available in the US. Brian quoted me $420 for 4 nozzles and $380 to extrude hone.

Anyone else interested? Maybe we can drive the cost down a little with multiple orders

I was a diesel injection tech for 13 years. Factory credentials for Stanadyne, but worked in a Bosch, Stanadyne, Lucas, Nippondenso, Zexel, Ambac authorized facility.

I have very, very grave misgivings about using extrude honed nozzles. Not to impugn anyone, I'm not. This isn't about "quality" or even that they increase flow. The issue, is that millions of dollars are spent to produce a nozzle with incredibly tight tolerances, and to design and implement the shape of the hole itself. Extrude honing changes the shape, not just size. You can't do a lot without creating some very significant risks in your motor.

Sadly, I no longer have access to the Bosch (and other brand) factory specs and detailed data. Way back in the late 90's, I created ( by accident ) an "international incident" and firestorm all over the internet by publishing part numbers on the internet of Bosch parts that worked for the same combustion chamber and piston, but flowed more - and had more holes. Eventually, it all became common knowledge for many things.

The best option, if one exists, is to see if you can find a nozzle designed for the same chamber, but with more flow capability. We went from 4 to a 5 hole nozzle, and suddenly, Dodge pickup owners with Cummins were punching an extra 50 horsepower without a single other change, and less smoke and better economy.

The theory behind higher flowing nozzles, is that you get more fuel in the same period of time, into the cylinder. This means more fuel and burn (more piston horsepower) during the same period of time. By NOT using the extra horsepower, you can actually optimize that shorter injection to more efficiently punch the piston down the cylinder. And when you do use the horsepower, it's in the form of torque, which lets you do the work while keeping the engine rpm's down (higher gear) and often use less fuel for the same work.

That being said, there has been countless millions of dollars put into finding the precise relationships between diameter, depth, shape of in and out openings and even the location and shape of the pintle, they are critical to getting the fuel to reach the correct spot in the chamber and burn there. You just can't screw with that a lot before you begin to get hot spots, cold spots, hit the cylinder wall with raw fuel, or other very seriously bad things.

If you're building a race motor with a short life due to being beaten to death, then go for it. Otherwise, I'd strongly suggest not doing it at all, and trying to find other ways to improve things via tuning the timing, airflow, and fuel quantity and pressure, instead.

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

Any one ever look up Bag of parts for the CP3 pump. Cummins guys are getting around 15% more flow at the same rail pressure. I'm going to shoot a email to green diesel and see if its somthing I could use.

minisub · **Posted:** Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:46 pm

I think this is an interesting option.

Bigger injectors do not necessarily mean or require more fuel per ignition event. So the comments about EGTs and more carbon etc, aren't too concerning to me. A bigger nozzle can allow you to get the same amount of fuel into the chamber in a shorter period of time. This means timing can be reduced and the main shot can happen closer to TDC. The closer to 0* timing you can get, the better your efficiency is going to be. (Check out the new Mazda diesels, very innovative things happening there)

The questions are: can rail pressure be maintained and can the tuning be optimized to take advantage of increased flow?

I might be interested in spending ~$400 for no increase in TQ or HP if it got me a few % increase in economy. I am assuming that if you could afford the downtime, your existing nozzles could be done for the ~$380 in the OP....

pwrwagn · **Joined:** Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 am **Posts:** 192

minisub wrote:

I think this is an interesting option.

Bigger injectors do not necessarily mean or require more fuel per ignition event. So the comments about EGTs and more carbon etc, aren't too concerning to me. A bigger nozzle can allow you to get the same amount of fuel into the chamber in a shorter period of time. This means timing can be reduced and the main shot can happen closer to TDC. The closer to 0* timing you can get, the better your efficiency is going to be.

This isn't quite accurate.

The higher the flow, the more fuel you can get into the combustion chamber at the most optimum time.

There is a very narrow window of maximum efficiency as it concerns when to inject the fuel. It isn't true that "faster is better", because there is a point where that's not true.

However, and here's the biggie: Today's engines are often FAR FAR from optimum as it concerns timing and efficiency, in order to help reduce NOx production. The most optimum timing will often produce rather high cylinder temperatures, high enough to turn the nitrogen in the air into oxides of nitrogen. It literally "burns the air" itself. While usually good for horsepower and economy, it produces emissions that our government frowns upon, to put it mildly.

OOps, forgot to finish the thought.

Efficiency and horsepower gains due to timing changes depend on the engine itself, and how much it is detuned via timing for emissions reasons. Thus, some engines can have dramatic improvements in fuel economy by tweaking timing curves, and others don't.

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

After talking with Keith I was told that upgrading the pump and injectors would not make a jump in power that much. Issue is the ports on the head are small so they are flow restricted when it comes to moving air. I have a spare head I picked up and going to dig into it and see if porting and extrude honing it would do much. Have to see if I can get it bench flow tested so I can see what max cfm is.

LS12FAST4U · **Posted:** Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:36 am

Any progress?

JeepCoMj · **Joined:** Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:54 pm **Posts:** 161

The simple matter with the CRD is that the motor has already been optimized for mileage (accept the americanized EGR) because of price of fuel overseas. I sincerely doubt that there is much room left to tweak the injector nozzles. getting a tune to deliver low rpm torque and then driving like a sane human being will probably yield better results than wasting your money on something like this.

But that's just an opinion.

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

JeepCoMj wrote:

The simple matter with the CRD is that the motor has already been optimized for mileage (accept the americanized EGR) because of price of fuel overseas. I sincerely doubt that there is much room left to tweak the injector nozzles. getting a tune to deliver low rpm torque and then driving like a sane human being will probably yield better results than wasting your money on something like this.

But that's just an opinion.

Not even close. That's why shops like GDE, in motion, Malone Tuning, SPE, KermaTDI, and others are in business.

There is even more to be had, but the market is just not flooded with CRD's as there are TDI's. So a lot more money spent in R&D just isn't going to happen for us anymore. :cry:

:lol:

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JeepCoMj · **Joined:** Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:54 pm **Posts:** 161

hucorey wrote:

JeepCoMj wrote:

The simple matter with the CRD is that the motor has already been optimized for mileage (accept the americanized EGR) because of price of fuel overseas. I sincerely doubt that there is much room left to tweak the injector nozzles. getting a tune to deliver low rpm torque and then driving like a sane human being will probably yield better results than wasting your money on something like this.

But that's just an opinion.

Not even close. That's why shops like GDE, in motion, Malone Tuning, SPE, KermaTDI, and others are in business.

There is even more to be had, but the market is just not flooded with CRD's as there are TDI's. So a lot more money spent in R&D just isn't going to happen for us anymore. :cry:

:lol:

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The Euro market has maximized fuel economy potential while being maintenance friendly. Last time I checked, the only real difference in the CRD's was the addition of an EGR valve, and a bit different ECM programming as a result.

This subject is like someone telling me that it's OK to advance an injector pump by more than 3 degrees....on anything, much less my renault 2.1l TD in my MJ. Once we get to the point of rolling coal out the tailpipe, all you're accomplishing is blowing out unspent fuel.

I agree that injector upgrades have merit, but there isn't really all that much extra to be had by these. Most of the tunes out there are designed to shut down the EGR, and add low RPM power (torque). They accomplish that well and leave the injectors mechanically alone. Really, in the end, that's all you need...especially since torque plays more into the power to weight equation than horsepower.

Upgrading these injectors would also mean custom programming. This idea would be too expensive to have merit.

Extrude honed nozzles

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