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Anyone want a CRD?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77089		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  pwrwagn [ Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Anyone want a CRD?
I'm about to scream.

I drove 1900 miles after my son put a a couple hundred miles on the jeep. During this time, it used no water that I could tell.

It certainly didn't the 1900 miles. Now, I've driven it about 250 miles, and it almost emptied the reservoir. I have gotten it fully up to temp (195 stant thermostat), driven around, and stopped and there's no pressure under the cap. even after driving hard.

There are no water leaks outside that drip, and no smell of antifreeze under the hood. But the water's going away. Again.

I MUST have a reliable rig to earn my living with. Now, when the head gasket went before, it was obvious, as the water would get into the cylinder and hydrolock it when you tried to start it, and it built pressure under the cap after it ran a bit. Of course, the amount of water leaking was large.

Any suggestions?

Or do you want it?
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
The thermal expansion rate of aluminum is double that of cast iron or steel. Installing head studs that do not allow for the thermal expansion, the head corrugations in the gasket have to take up all the give to compensate. Then the head gasket flattens out, becomes thinner and leaks. Before stretch bolts, head gaskets with aluminum heads did not last as long as they do now because the head bolts did not yield to compensate for the expansion of the aluminum head. If the head were cast iron instead of aluminum, the studs would expand at the same rate as the head and not be an issue. If ARP had been compensated for their engineering time to design a stud with the right stretch to compensate for thermal expansion of the aluminum head, then, tested and validated, you would not be having your problem. When I read the threads on the ARP Head Studs, it sounded like matching up the dimensions was all that was being done. No company can invest Engineering time and testing expenses to produce a limited number of head studs with no chance of recovering their investment.

The Laws of Physics are universal and not forgiving, Bean Counter Engineers (like the morons who push 0W-40 oil when the engine was designed for 10W-40) or those who gamble with designs have no exemptions.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Above freezing, a 10w-40 is the same weight as a 0w-40.

As far as the thermal expansion of aluminum having ANYTHING to do with leaking heads - Sorry, but I disagree. There are many many TDIs running around with ARP studs in them, and they have functionally the same setup as the CRD: An iron block, laminated steel head gasket, and the aluminum head. I have not heard of a single instance of a failure like you describe.

The factory bolts on the CRD have been tested by multiple people, myself included. Other members have seen the head yield with as little as 140 lbs of torque on the bolt head. I personally have attempted to make the bolt FAIL by over-torquing it, and at 250lb-ft the flutes on the head rounded off. The bolt shaft NEVER stretched or failed. It is my opinion that these bolts would never yield under normal factory usage. While they might be CALLED TTY bolts, in this application, they are simply large non-flexible bolts.

The usage of ARP studs applies much more consistent and measurably-precise clamping force versus the wide threads of the factory bolts. On vehicles that I have disassembled, the factory bolts have had inconsistent removal torque, some far in excess of 120 lbs, while some have been as low as 100. This inconsistency suggests a possible source for the head gasket problems, rather than the tens of thousands of vehicles with or without stretch bolts that have aluminum heads and do not have gasket leaks.

I do not disagree that thermal expansion COULD be a contributing factor, but within this application, these factory bolts are far oversized and do not provide any local yielding to prevent the head itself from compacting - if that is indeed what is happening to cause the loss of coolant.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Pwrwagon- I have a thought for you: Have you tried a static pressure test or a leak-down test? You can make a rig to do this yourself, all you really need is a plug that fits the radiator cap with a tire valve threaded into it. Pressurize the system with a compressor to 16 lbs (this is normal operating pressure) and see if you can see / hear any leaking.

Just while I was typing this, it occurred to me that it COULD be the actual radiator cap itself. If the thermal spring in that goes bad, then it could be venting pressure and water to the overflow side of the bottle, or out the drain.

If you do a pressure leak-down test and the system holds pressure for at least several hours... Well, I don't know where the next step would be. Obviously the water has to be going somewhere.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Is there any possibility that the EGR cooler has a leak?

That would explain no pressure but still a coolant loss.

how do you bypass it? I'll just disconnect the EGR control. I have the MAF sensor on the air cleaner unplugged anyway.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Odd. The normal quick test for combustion to coolant leak is on a cold engine crank up and run briefly (like 30 seconds) and then check for pressure under the radiator cap. The reason for the brief crank up is to PREVENT the pressure buildup that one expects as the coolant heads toward operating temperature and expands. If it expands enough to reach the pop off pressure of the radiator cap then the cap valve opens and coolant pressure is reduced by venting coolant into the recovery side of the tank. This basic design has been around for decades and obviates the olden days need to constantly check coolant level because, absent the recovery tank, back then the radiator cap simply vented "excess" coolant pressure by dumping coolant on the ground.

You say after operating a full engine temp there is no pressure. That's physically impossible unless your coolant level is incredibly low or the radiator cap is so bad it's venting pressure constantly. I suspect the latter. Get a new cap in the proper pressure range (should be written on the top).

Other wise there are a host of places, other than the head gasket, where you can lose lots of coolant without seeing anything. Pressure test is good but a) may not work on a cold system and b) won't tell you where the leak is if you lose pressure. Best bet is get some coolant UV dye at any parts store (under $10) and a UV light (under $20); dump dye in coolant; drive like normal for a couple of days; and then in a shady area with minimal ambient light use the UV light to look for a leak. Don't forget the EGR cooler on the driver's side or the oil cooler on the passenger side in front of the turbo (may have to remove heat shield or the bottom edge of the timing belt inner cover (where a leaky water pump would drip) or the heater core drip hose on the firewall in front of passenger (heater core leaks are hard to find by fluid would come out there and typical the heated air smells of antifreeze).

This is not a CRD problem it's an any water cooled engine problem.

Can the EGR cooler be bypassed? Yes if you have a GDE tune and there are how too write ups. With just the MAF disconnected I don't know the answer for sure.
Author:  Jay ne Ohio [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
pwrwagn wrote:
Is there any possibility that the EGR cooler has a leak?

That would explain no pressure but still a coolant loss.

how do you bypass it? I'll just disconnect the EGR control. I have the MAF sensor on the air cleaner unplugged anyway.


No tune needed to bypass. You can block off the egr with a coin. I disconnected the pipe that runs behind the engine, inserted a coin, used the clamp to hold the coin in place, welded the pipe shut. I then disconnected the FCV so that it would remain open. This does throw a check engine light, but does not put it in limp mode. The MAF sensor can be reconnected. You can then bypass the egr cooler.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Using a coin in the EGR pipe - that is a novel solution... Use a government product to solve a government problem!


Disconnecting the hoses to the EGR cooler are not hard, the easiest way to do this that I know of is to directly route the nipple on the side of the head (between the #2 and #3 glow plugs) up to the coolant pipe that crosses the top of the engine right behind the timing cover. The metal pipe can be eliminated entirely, and the only other thing it feeds down there is the EGR cooler.

You will want to have a tune or an SEGR to avoid a check engine light / code if you block the EGR pipe itself (something I fully support) and as for the FCV... Removing the center disc is the simplest solution to killing that. 2 screws, and leave the shaft and the rest of it in place. It is completely non-functional without the disc.

Papaindigo makes a good point that I missed in your original thread - there isn't ANY pressure even at operating temperature? Without the presence of a MASSIVE leak, sucking all the water away within a few miles, the system isn't sealed. Radiator caps are cheap Chinese crap, and they do go bad. That is the cheapest solution, especially if you do a leak-down test with a test cap and it doesn't show anything leaking.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
So I drove 150 miles today... and it didn't go down at all.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Air bubble before then?
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
geordi wrote:
Air bubble before then?


No, I don't think so.

As I said, my son picked it up from the mechanic. Drove it a week. I made sure the fluids were all full before I left. Then I flew back to oregon and drove it to illinois. It didn't lose water from Oregon to IL, total of 1900 miles.

Then, over the next 5 days, I ran around town and one short trip, and it went from the "full" mark to just barely anything in the reservoir. I put more water in, and it went down again. Then, I drove it today and the level in the tank went up a bit when warm, and then back down a bit when cool, and up again when warm - like it should. I went over 150 miles, half of it 70+ freeway, the rest a mix of 15 mph to 55 mph roads and several stops.

I'll just keep watching it. As I said, there's never any pressure in the tank, even after driving on the freeway. That's not THAT unusual. My old slant six can be run as hard as it will go, in hot weather, towing, and it won't get any pressure until or unless you shot it off hot (no cool-down before shutting off). Yes, you can pull the radiator cap after pulling into a rest area without even shutting it off, and no pressure or water spout.

I'm gonna spend some time tomorrow digging around looking for more places it could leak. It has a new WP, head gasket, tb, and idler from ID Parts. And I put in a Stant thermostat, because it wouldn't get fully warm unless you had it floored climbing long steep grades at 80. And now the heater works good. You had to have full hot to get the cabin lukewarm when it was 25 degrees outside, now it'll bake you out at 40 degrees almost immediately.
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Did the mechanic remove the thermostat or any of the upper coolant hoses allowing the coolant to drain?

I have experienced air in the head when replacing the thermostat by doing just that.

I partially drained the coolant when replacing the thermostat and then refilled system via the expansion tank, only to discover that refilling it in this way I allowed air in the head and in the heater core.

When air gets in the heater core, I found that it is difficult to get out, I think it just rests on top somewhere. That is why the no heat in cab happens..... and I have no explanation for why this happens. But I have experienced it and so have many others. As you know, having air in the head is big problem for our CRD.

Do the following: find a steep hill and point the nose to the sky, open the plastic twist valve on top of the radiator and let the engine run for a spell allowing the any air to escape, then close it and see if the coolant level drops any more.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
racertracer wrote:
Did the mechanic remove the thermostat or any of the upper coolant hoses allowing the coolant to drain?


He removed the head, so I would expect so.

Quote:
I have experienced air in the head when replacing the thermostat by doing just that.


Ok.


Quote:
When air gets in the heater core, I found that it is difficult to get out, I think it just rests on top somewhere. That is why the no heat in cab happens..... and I have no explanation for why this happens. But I have experienced it and so have many others. As you know, having air in the head is big problem for our CRD.


No, the heater didn't heat because the engine didn't get warm.

Quote:
Do the following: find a steep hill and point the nose to the sky, open the plastic twist valve on top of the radiator and let the engine run for a spell allowing the any air to escape, then close it and see if the coolant level drops any more.


I'll try that.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
Checking for air is probably worth doing but I doubt that's the issue assuming the coolant refill is done right. There is no inline coolant valve on the heater (e.g. you don't have to have heat "on" to do this but it won't hurt) so by right I mean on a cold engine:
1. lower radiator drain valve closed
2. upper radiator vent valve open
3. add 6.6qts (my best estimate of correct amount of coolant to get a 50/50 mix) to the tank on the firewall
4. continue fill with demineralized water until fluid begins to come out of the upper radiator vent valve
5. burp upper radiator hose and continue fill until it won't burp
6. close upper radiator vent valve
7. continue filling the tank until ca. 3/4" above the midline
8. do 2-3 cold to hot to cold drive cycles and recheck level of coolant in tank - should drop to just a bit above the midline as residual air bleeds out of the system.

My gut says you have a bad/sticky radiator cap that's intermittently venting coolant out of the tank on the firewall. Radiator caps are cheap; replace and see if it helps.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
papaindigo wrote:
Checking for air is probably worth doing but I doubt that's the issue assuming the coolant refill is done right. There is no inline coolant valve on the heater (e.g. you don't have to have heat "on" to do this but it won't hurt) so by right I mean on a cold engine:
1. lower radiator drain valve closed
2. upper radiator vent valve open
3. add 6.6qts (my best estimate of correct amount of coolant to get a 50/50 mix) to the tank on the firewall
4. continue fill with demineralized water until fluid begins to come out of the upper radiator vent valve
5. burp upper radiator hose and continue fill until it won't burp
6. close upper radiator vent valve
7. continue filling the tank until ca. 3/4" above the midline
8. do 2-3 cold to hot to cold drive cycles and recheck level of coolant in tank - should drop to just a bit above the midline as residual air bleeds out of the system.

My gut says you have a bad/sticky radiator cap that's intermittently venting coolant out of the tank on the firewall. Radiator caps are cheap; replace and see if it helps.


I looked the cap over. It's brand new. I see no evidence of it blowing water out.

However, I did do some air bleeding and there WAS quite a bit of air in the radiator and the little return line from the top of the radiator to the tank had no liquid in it. Basically, it had never been purged. When I first opened the bleed, no water came out and I had to add (my driveway slants a bit) water to get it to fill the radiator and displace the air. I even got the air out of the return from the top of the radiator.

Then I got it hot by driving a few miles, and it got just a slight bit of pressure under the cap - I never did before that I could tell. The water in the tank was warm enough to have a little bit of steam trickle out with the cap off and it running.

I'll give it a week and see if keeps dropping. I don't think it will. At least I hope not.

I might be doing this all for nothing but a learning experience. I finally caught on that it has green stuff in it and I find it should have the orange stuff in it. Why can't people look things up and do it right???
Author:  geordi [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
COLOR MEANS NOTHING ANYMORE. That said, if there is the slightest question, then a fresh water flush and fresh HOAT fill is cheap insurance.

Everyone knows my feelings on dealer monkeys... unfortunately, many non-dealer techs mean well, but also miss the mark too.

Nobody knows or cares about your vehicle like you do. Best let the work be done by the one that cares the most, right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
geordi wrote:
COLOR MEANS NOTHING ANYMORE. That said, if there is the slightest question, then a fresh water flush and fresh HOAT fill is cheap insurance.

Everyone knows my feelings on dealer monkeys... unfortunately, many non-dealer techs mean well, but also miss the mark too.

Nobody knows or cares about your vehicle like you do. Best let the work be done by the one that cares the most, right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I would if I could. I have no shop to work in.

I am the son of a mechanic, who has done mechanic stuff all his life, and was a diesel repair shop tech (vehicles AND injection systems) for 13 of those years.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
pwrwagn wrote:
geordi wrote:
COLOR MEANS NOTHING ANYMORE. That said, if there is the slightest question, then a fresh water flush and fresh HOAT fill is cheap insurance.

Everyone knows my feelings on dealer monkeys... unfortunately, many non-dealer techs mean well, but also miss the mark too.

Nobody knows or cares about your vehicle like you do. Best let the work be done by the one that cares the most, right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I would if I could. I have no shop to work in.



Neither do I. As Geordi can testify, not only do I not have a shop, I have no garage, and I did my stud replacement/TB under a tent and a tarp in midwinter. (with heaters to keep my fingers from freezing) It can be done at least as long as there are no local regulations against it (HOA, zoning, etc.) When I was having temp issues, I figured out that the PO had put the wrong coolant in and did a drain/flush refill to get the incorrect coolant out.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
pwrwagn wrote:
papaindigo wrote:
Checking for air is probably worth doing but I doubt that's the issue assuming the coolant refill is done right. There is no inline coolant valve on the heater (e.g. you don't have to have heat "on" to do this but it won't hurt) so by right I mean on a cold engine:
1. lower radiator drain valve closed
2. upper radiator vent valve open
3. add 6.6qts (my best estimate of correct amount of coolant to get a 50/50 mix) to the tank on the firewall
4. continue fill with demineralized water until fluid begins to come out of the upper radiator vent valve
5. burp upper radiator hose and continue fill until it won't burp
6. close upper radiator vent valve
7. continue filling the tank until ca. 3/4" above the midline
8. do 2-3 cold to hot to cold drive cycles and recheck level of coolant in tank - should drop to just a bit above the midline as residual air bleeds out of the system.

My gut says you have a bad/sticky radiator cap that's intermittently venting coolant out of the tank on the firewall. Radiator caps are cheap; replace and see if it helps.

<snip>I did do some air bleeding and there WAS quite a bit of air in the radiator and the little return line from the top of the radiator to the tank had no liquid in it. Basically, it had never been purged. When I first opened the bleed, no water came out and I had to add (my driveway slants a bit) water to get it to fill the radiator and displace the air. I even got the air out of the return from the top of the radiator.

Then I got it hot by driving a few miles, and it got just a slight bit of pressure under the cap - I never did before that I could tell. The water in the tank was warm enough to have a little bit of steam trickle out with the cap off and it running.



RacerTracer's suggestion about parking it on a steep hill nose up is a good addition to Papa's list.
It also helps to loosen the hose that runs across the top front where it goes into the Tstat, IIRC. Even after the radiator vent ran wet I got air out of that. I would also add that I put a shop vac on the reservoir AFTER I closed all the other vents and got some air out that way too. Don't jam it in, put your hand around it and vary the amount of suction on the tank until you don't get any more burping. That gets the heater core, the head and everything. Doing it that way, I filled the tank to the mark and have never added coolant since, and I check it regularly.

I used to think that people who designed cars knew what they were doing. I also used to think that people who wrote repair and maintenance manuals knew what they were doing. (I used to believe in Santa Claus, too :cry: ) Working on the CRD has irrevocably removed any vestige of respect I have for factory engineers, dealers and factory maintenance manuals. Not saying they are all bad, but I will never again take the factory manual at face value, but will look at things myself and make my own judgments.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone want a CRD?
LMWatBullRun wrote:

Neither do I. As Geordi can testify, not only do I not have a shop, I have no garage, and I did my stud replacement/TB under a tent and a tarp in midwinter. (with heaters to keep my fingers from freezing) It can be done at least as long as there are no local regulations against it (HOA, zoning, etc.) When I was having temp issues, I figured out that the PO had put the wrong coolant in and did a drain/flush refill to get the incorrect coolant out.


There's rules against almost everything but breathing here.
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