shuddering and stalling when stopping

SLS · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:46 pm

Recently began experiencing significant shudder when stopping and it even stalls the 2006 CRD engine when cold. After 5 to 10 miles & warmed up it doesn't do this. In searching for info on this it doesn't appear to be described as an issue with the torque converter. I didn't want to start a new subject but my searches didn't find anything directly related to this.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:50 pm

If you haven't already done so, start by changing your Transmission fluid and filters, including the differential fluids.

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

do you have a way to monitor rail pressure? If so check and see if your rail pressure is all over the place. If it is then the fuel control actuator is going bad. Is a common problem on the cp3 pump.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:20 pm

Its the transmission drainback issue.
Mine will do it at random times.
New fluid and filters might fix it, might not.
About the only thing you can do to make sure it doesnt happen is run the engine in N for a
minute before putting it into R or D.

SLS · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:42 pm

flash7210 wrote:

Its the transmission drainback issue.
Mine will do it at random times.
New fluid and filters might fix it, might not.
About the only thing you can do to make sure it doesn't happen is run the engine in N for a minute before putting it into R or D.

Thanks for the quick response! I have been putting it in neutral just before I stop & then it doesn't stall.
A while ago I changed all the fluids as suggested, Transmission fluid and filters, including the differential fluids. I'll ck how many miles back that was. Probably wouldn't hurt to do it again. It was done at the "stealers" maybe they didn't get the filter in correctly.
You mentioned a transmission drainback issue, is there a fix for this?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:49 pm

SLS wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

Its the transmission drainback issue.
Mine will do it at random times.
New fluid and filters might fix it, might not.
About the only thing you can do to make sure it doesn't happen is run the engine in N for a minute before putting it into R or D.

You mentioned a transmission drainback issue, is there a fix for this?

AFAIK, there is no definitive fix for it.
Other threads on this subject have reccomended new UPDATED filters from Chrysler as a fix.
Or replacing a check valve on the valve body, next to the filter inlet.
Or replacing/ rebuilbing the transmission pump.
But I know of no one who tried any of those fixes and said they never had another problem.

Maybe someone will reply here with a definite answer.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:06 pm

flash7210 wrote:

SLS wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

Its the transmission drainback issue.
Mine will do it at random times.
New fluid and filters might fix it, might not.
About the only thing you can do to make sure it doesn't happen is run the engine in N for a minute before putting it into R or D.

You mentioned a transmission drainback issue, is there a fix for this?

AFAIK, there is no definitive fix for it.
Other threads on this subject have reccomended new UPDATED filters from Chrysler as a fix.
Or replacing a check valve on the valve body, next to the filter inlet.
Or replacing/ rebuilbing the transmission pump.
But I know of no one who tried any of those fixes and said they never had another problem.
Maybe someone will reply here with a definite answer.

I too experienced the dreaded shutter and stall usually after driving a couple hundred feet just after starting cold and then braking to stop or slow down. What you are experiencing is the torque converter is actually trying to lock up which causes the shutter and eventually stalls the motor out.
I had gotten into the shift into neutral habit as you stated to prevent the problem. :cry:

I was told by some that is was due to a weak front oil pump in the transmission or a solenoid problem or a filter problem, or a drain back valve problem. I still don't think it was any of these!

So I changed both filters using OEM Mopar ones and also changed the drain back valve while I was in there since it was only $8.00. Filled it to the COLD fill mark with Mopar AFT +4. After all this, it still was doing the same thing as before.
Believe it or not the fix was quite simple! A list member told me the oil level was too low when cold causing the pump to put foam in the oil.

I then added more AFT+4 oil to the transmission till it was just at the hot full mark when cold.
I have not experienced another shutter so far to this day for over two months. :BANANA:

It may not be a fix everyone's shutter problem, but it sure worked for me!!! :BINGO:

Oil is cheap, worth a try! :wink:

Best of luck to anyone with this issue,
WW

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Not to step on any toes but here is my :2cents:

1. been there done that with torque converter drain back on 2 Plymouth Voyagers and 3 KJ CRDs. My experience is the drain back only occurs on first startup after the vehicle has been sitting for 6+ hours (like overnight or at work). If the drainback occurs one of 2 things will happen a) shift into gear and it might work in reverse but as soon as you engage D nothing happens (it's like the vehicle is in neutral) or b) when you put it in drive you will get the neutral feeling VERY briefly and then the tranny will engage "hard" at which point you will drive maybe 100-150' at which point there will be massive tranny shudder and the engine will stall with or without a CEL. There is a TSB on this and the original cause was a bad batch of Mopar tranny filters with a faulty anti-drain back valve on one of them; those filters are probably long gone but for a while dumpster divers were hawking them as cheap OEM filters on eBay. FYI on the Plymouths the fix was to knurl the piston of the anti-drain back valve in the tranny. On the KJ WWdiesel covers several of the option which might or might not work but he omits flman's in line anti-drainback valve (viewtopic.php?f=98&t=55110). I have not had the issue since installing a SunCoast TC and the transgo kit and my son's 06 has not had the issue since tranny service with WIX tranny filters for what that's worth. I can tell you that the issue is harmless and can be bypassed by a few simple steps if the vehicle has been sitting for a while a) crankup and shift into Neutral (don't leave it in Park as the tranny pump speed is slow in Park); b) hold a high (ca. 1200rpm) idle for 10-15 seconds; c) shift into gear and drive off. If that doesn't do it repeat cycle and if you forget to do the cycle and the tranny hesitates to engage IMMEDIATELY shift into Neutral and run the high idle cycle.
2. cheap no name filters and failure to use ATF+4 can cause poor engagement especially when cold in addition to the drain back problem
3. the push on filter has been know to drop off and cause problems.
4. the flat plate on the side of the valve body can crack or come loose
5. the tranny really hates to be low on fluid which can cause shift issue when cold that go away as hot fluid expands.

If it was mine I'd do a fluid/filter change with Mopar or WIX filters and ATF+4 and tend toward overfilling the tranny. Alternatively you can just try adding 0.5 or 1 qt of ATF+4 and see if that solves the problem. Those are the cheap and easy obvious steps.

I doubt it's the drain back issue as your OP indicates this is not an exclusively at first startup issue and I doubt it's fuel rail pressure and the OP says it goes away after the tranny warms up. My money is on filter/fluid/fluid level issues.

Brianawd · **Joined:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:59 pm **Posts:** 130

[quoteI doubt it's fuel rail pressure and the OP says it goes away after the tranny warms up. My money is on filter/fluid/fluid level issues.[/quote]

When the fuel control actuator startes to go out it can cause a surging, shutter and or dieing after first start up. What ends up happing is the acutuator causes huge flucuations in the rail pressure. Before I replaced mine, at idel I could would see pressure go from 4600-4800psi all the way to 22,000-23,000psi. Same with driving. Pressue was all over the map. The actuator is what controls the flow of diesel from the low pressure side of the pump to the high. inturn controling the rail pressure. Mine would have issue when cold. After driving for some time the issue would go away.

Now I'm not saying thats what the OP issue is. I'm just advising him to watch his rail pressue for any huge spikes or dropes.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:27 pm

Interesting. My money is still on the tranny stuff I mentioned and that's a good place to start. Not many of us, myself included, have the gear to monitor line pressure.

flman · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:20 pm

SLS wrote:

Thanks for the quick response! I have been putting it in neutral just before I stop & then it doesn't stall.
A while ago I changed all the fluids as suggested, Transmission fluid and filters, including the differential fluids. I'll ck how many miles back that was. Probably wouldn't hurt to do it again. It was done at the "stealers" maybe they didn't get the filter in correctly.
You mentioned a transmission drainback issue, is there a fix for this?

And, what kind of fluid did you use? ATF+4? :idea:

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Pap is absolutely correct on the drain back valve symptoms. It shows up when the jeep sets overnight or for a long period of time and you first crank it and put it in "D" and nothing happens. Have to shift to "N" to allow the line pressure to build up and then shift into "D".

Had the same issue start on my 98 Dodge Cummins a few years back, and transmission builder friend of mine told me about cranking in "N" instead of "P". I think it is a large Mopar issue?
He said something about the oil pump is not engaged in "P", only in all the other gears.
Been doing this little trick for about 30 seconds for years now on the ol Dodge...and no hesitation when placed in Drive... :SOMBRERO:

shuddering and stalling when stopping

Who is online