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Dead
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78832		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Bones 123 [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Dead
2005 Liberty CRD, 104000 miles. Timing belt changed at approx 100000. F37 performed, ORM and EHM accomplished.

Been having cold start problems lately, first startup of the day takes a little more cranking to fire. After that no prob.

Went out this morning, key in, turned it to power up, (not start), and then to start. Nothing. I have a new-ish Sears Die-Hard Platinum, Group 65 AGM battery shoehorned in there rated to put out 950 CCA. I don't have a vehicular ammeter, but the voltmeter showed 12.79 volts DC. Plugged it in to my charger/maintainer, waited for a while for a green light, got it, still 12.79 v. Hooked the charger/starter to it, switch to start/boost. Nothing.

OBD II codes are P0401 x2, P0069, P0101 x2, and P0102x2.

Ideas?
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Please define "nothing". Solenoid click no starter engage, crank but no start, turn key and absolutely nothing happens (ex. radio won't even come on), etc?

If the latter I'll bet the silly little plastic rod that runs from the key area under the steering column to the starter switch has busted. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61233&p=678574&hilit=+brother#p678574 . Or could be a bad neutral/park indicator telling the system "no start" because you are in gear

Crank but no start with good battery and fuel but no usable code is often the crank position sensor (can be pulled and tested with a hair dryer, if ohms are all over the place when hot it's dead).

You have 1 EGR and 1 MAF sensor codes neither of which should relate to starting. The other 2 codes I don't know. See list at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61233&p=678574&hilit=+brother#p678574
Author:  Bones 123 [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Turn key, idiot lights come on, no crank. A "click" sound from under the hood is audible. My diesel mechanic friend thinks relay?
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
As I recall - turn key, turns plastic shaft under steering column, which turns ignition switch on left side of steering column, which essentially say hey ECU I'd like to start the engine is everything ok, starter engages, engine turns over, fires and runs.

If battery is the least bit weak, not the same as having proper voltage, no start but your click sounds like something is trying to do something. Open hood, pop cover on power distribution center between battery and hood, have someone turn on key and see if click comes from there, maybe swap relays based on relay "size" per owner's manual. If click comes from starter, low on driver's side of engine IIRC think bad ground or bad starter.

Bottom line sounds electrical not engine mechanical.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Hook up a jump battery and see if anything different happens.

DOC
Author:  geordi [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Loud click sound from under the hood is usually the starter. The bendix (magic throw-out solenoid) might be engaging, which means that the gear is magnetically thrown out to engage the flywheel... BUT the main coils are shot or seized and it doesn't spin.

This car is a computer nightmare. The computer MUST authorize the starter to engage, and you wouldn't hear that from the cabin at all. If the self-checks are all completed (and I'm guessing that your airbags are still right where you left them) then the computer closes the relay to send power directly to the starter, and it sends out the bendix and starts spinning.

I'd check the starter first, everything else seems good from what you describe. This could just be an easy solution for you, and luckily you can also test the starter with little more than a set of jumper cables.
Author:  Billwill [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
I agree with papaindigo that it is probably the actuator pin going to the ignition switch that has snapped off.

I would first check that the battery is good, the battery connections are clean and tight, the negative battery lead going to chassis is clean and tight and the grounding strap grounding the engine to the chassis is clean and tight.

Then swap over the Starter Relay with an identical one next to it. Make sure fuse 8 (40 A) is OK.

Then turn ON the ignition, remove the Starter Relay, make sure Jeep is in Park and briefly jumper pins 30 and 87 in the relay socket together.
If the engine now turns over it means:

The actuator pin is broken at the ignition switch or...
One of the interlocks for Park or Neutral is not working thus preventing the engine from turning over. :wink:
Author:  Bones 123 [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Went out today with printed copy of your collective advice. Tried again, no-go. Fuses all good, swapped starter relay and tried it. Clicking from under the hood and then nothing. Pulled relay, turned key and jumpered 30 and 87. No change. (Held it on too long - smoke!)

Voltmeter reads 12.60 at battery, and the same at connection at starter, connection looks pristine. Wife turned the key with me under the car, (!) click sound from vicinity of starter.

Solenoid?
Author:  GeorgeNJ [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Just one click sounds like a starter issue like Geordi mentioned. Back in my AAA driver days, we'd have the customer try the starter on and off while we'd tap on the starter with a metal rod. Most times that would get it going so they could drive to a station to get replaced. Often times the car would start on it's own after that, I guess they had dead spots on the starters and it ended it's spin with the dead spot on the contacts, so it wouldn't start next time it was called on.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Another possible answer is that the computer is actually blocking the engine from starting. On the most recent timing belt stop, I had the opportunity to try and recover a CRD that hasn't run in many months. The battery was marginal, and the codes from it were somewhat all over the map - and not consistent. Much of the harness had been unplugged during the engine repairs, but the battery had not been disconnected.

Clearing the codes would sometimes get it to attempt a start, then the next attempt (since it didn't start with air in the fuel rail) it would just make the same loud solenoid-click and do nothing else.

Unplugging the battery for a few minutes (less than 5 while we were scratching our heads) seemed to calm things down. The codes became just EGR / FCV / and air temp sensor... None were too terrible and the engine started behaving as expected. It also started up eventually and ran rough until the air purged, then smoothed right out.

Try unplugging your battery for a bit, it couldn't hurt, and it's free.
Author:  Billwill [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Sounds like it could be the solenoid or the starter. Leaving the relay jumper wire on too long and it getting hot indicates that power is reaching the starter motor but it refuses to turn.

As stated the starter could have a bad spot on its comutator ring.

If you remove the starter from the engine will it turn over?

Can you manually turn the engine over with a large socket spanner? :?
Author:  dirtmover [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Bones 123 wrote:
Wife turned the key with me under the car, (!) click sound from vicinity of starter.

Solenoid?


The starter is always powered so if the solenoid is energizing and the motor is not turning either the contacts are bad or the motor is dead.
Author:  ibedonc [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
on my 05 I had the wire (spade connector) come off my starter , thought it was a bad starter , until I found the wire off
Author:  etravlr [ Mon May 05, 2014 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Can the plastic piece be replaced without replacing the steering collumn?

Mine died with no click. Had to have it towed to the stealership. They swapped out the collumn after the starter replace did not work.

If the plastic peice can be replaced does anyone have a part number.

Related topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78112

Rich
Author:  ATXKJ [ Mon May 05, 2014 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
I think the Dorman actuator pin fixes a lot of issues

http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-45278-924-704.aspx

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=784264#p784264
Author:  etravlr [ Tue May 06, 2014 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Good to know. Thanks.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
Author:  taroo [ Sun May 11, 2014 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Bones 123 wrote:
Turn key, idiot lights come on, no crank. A "click" sound from under the hood is audible. My diesel mechanic friend thinks relay?


Replace the battery. I have a Sears Platinum that died early....Sears actually gave me a new one free of charge. Think it shorted out. Symptoms were the same as yours....
Author:  The Scott McLean [ Sun May 11, 2014 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
No one addresses where smoke came from, when key held on? Did the smoke come from down low on engine drivers side? If so check wires and connection to starter. The click can be from starter solenoid, but if you have a poor connection to starter, the wires will fry. I.e. Smoking. Check starter wires for damage.
Author:  laplaya [ Sun May 11, 2014 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
The smoke came from the wire he was using to jump the relay ports.
Author:  Drewd [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dead
Give the starter a couple of good whacks with a hammer...not kidding.
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