Redemption, I'll be putting ARP's in two other engines soon, so I'll make sure to get the torque data on them
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| 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80943 |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Well, I finally got my internet back, so I could tell the story of my latest CRD adventure, and ask for advice. In route from CA to ID (1000 miles), pulling another CRD on a tow dolley (about 6500 lbs) up a steep hill, with stock engine, limp mode started, probably toasted a rocker. Unplugged ECU and or battery a couple times, and got it out of limp mode. Continued on, but low on power and smoked bad. Smoked for 800 miles, was moving, and didn't have a plan B, so just kept going... After 800 miles, developed bad knocking sound, and very low power, just kept going... Made it to ID, but knocking sound got bad, over heated and shut it down. Towed it half hour to house. Spent 6 months pissed at myself for destroying engine, certain that it had swallowed a valve, Finally got the head off of it yesterday, and to my amazement, everything looks great, except for some cam scrapes, and some toasted rockers (they were all in bad shape at 88k miles with active EGR). The reason I was "certain" that the bottom end had gone was because the balancer had forcefully popped the bolts out of the crank. But, after seeing the top end reasonably ok, I remembered that my first CRD had the balancer loose, also, and remembered reading some warnings about this. (Check your balancer bolts!) Anyhow, I think all the imbalance from toasted rockers caused an already loose balancer to come off, hence the loud knocking. I spun the crank by hand, and it feels smooth as can be. The pistons didn't so much as touch a valve, and the bores look great, as does the head. I know I got lucky, but the rockers needed replaced anyhow, and the old brown goo tells me the head gasket was already leaking. So, I hope I'm only out a couple cams... Also a bonus, it's obvious the timing belt was done recently, but they didn't replace the idler pulleys, which had a ton of play, so maybe this saved the engine, who knows. What do you all think? Would you tear into the bottom end to make sure the rod and main bearings are ok, after all I did hear knocking. Could the balancer getting ejected off the front of the crank have damaged the front bearings? That's my biggest worry. Is there any way to get an idea of the condition of those bearings without pulling the block and pan? Metal/silver oil in the pan if the bearings got damaged? I'd hate to put this thing back together and have a knock. Sorry I read the post about head bolt torque data hours after I pulled mine, dangit! Thanks for reading! |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Redemption, I'll be putting ARP's in two other engines soon, so I'll make sure to get the torque data on them
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
So you're saying that the 4 little bolts that hold harmonic balancer were completely out or just partially? Anyways, I don't see how driving with an "imbalanced" balancer for few hundred miles can mess up the bearings... |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Did it mess up the bolt holes in the crank where the balancer bolts on? If those bolt holes are still good, then the crank should be good provided you did not run it low in oil...  I would do all the topside work and go for it! |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Well, the ballancer was hanging on by a few threads of one bolt when i shut it down  One or two of the others hand been pulled strait out and had mashed threads, but one or two ended up on the road somewhere. It was blasting water out when I stopped it, so it must have finished the head gasket off at that point also. I imagine I should have a machine shop check the head for micro cracks that I might miss, and make sure it's flat? Or, will the ARP's flatten in out? Oil looked pretty good, but I wasn't looking close for silver. I can look at what's in the bottom of the pan for the heavy stuff. No water in the oil. Thanks fellas 
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
oh, 3 of the 4 holes in the crank are in good shape, the other one the bolt fits loosely. I might get enough torque on that one and add some locktite. I wonder if not, if I can tap it up a size without the larger bolt causing imbalance? |
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
I think your bolts were not properly torqued to begin with, so this issue, in my opinion, would have happened regardless. But you can always rethread and go with bigger bolts, and if you replace all of them with same size/length, I don't see an issue with balancing. |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
ok, many thanks I forgot to mention that the rubber in the balancer is cracked, so I guess I should replace it also?
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
That rubber is for keeping clean the crank side I believe. I do have a used spare balancer you can have for free, but that thing is pretty heavy, I'm not sure how much that would be to ship it... A new one would put you I think well over 150. |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Right on! I think it will fit in a small to medium flat rate box for $8-$12. You take paypal? 
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Mountainman wrote: oh, 3 of the 4 holes in the crank are in good shape, the other one the bolt fits loosely. I might get enough torque on that one and add some locktite. I wonder if not, if I can tap it up a size without the larger bolt causing imbalance? They make helicoils in metric sizes, have used them many, many times, they are the best thread repair there is if you got enough metal to tap to oversize for the coil.... You pull out a HeliCoil; you have done some serious over torquing!!!! 
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
WWDiesel wrote: Mountainman wrote: oh, 3 of the 4 holes in the crank are in good shape, the other one the bolt fits loosely. I might get enough torque on that one and add some locktite. I wonder if not, if I can tap it up a size without the larger bolt causing imbalance? They make helicoils in metric sizes, have used them many, many times, they are the best thread repair there is if you got enough metal to tap to oversize for the coil.... You pull out a HeliCoil; you have done some serious over torquing!!!! Timesert is the best  . I don't like helicoil due to the small bent towards the center of the hole where you put that "key" tool to thread it in. That prevents longer bolts to go through. Timesert is a cylinder with threads outside and inside. But for what mountainman needs I think rethreading is better and easier, since he needs to tap in anyways.
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
thermorex wrote: WWDiesel wrote: Mountainman wrote: oh, 3 of the 4 holes in the crank are in good shape, the other one the bolt fits loosely. I might get enough torque on that one and add some locktite. I wonder if not, if I can tap it up a size without the larger bolt causing imbalance? They make helicoils in metric sizes, have used them many, many times, they are the best thread repair there is if you got enough metal to tap to oversize for the coil.... You pull out a HeliCoil; you have done some serious over torquing!!!! Timesert is the best . I don't like helicoil due to the small bent towards the center of the hole where you put that "key" tool to thread it in. That prevents longer bolts to go through. Timesert is a cylinder with threads outside and inside.That small part can be broke off and removed with some needle nose pliers, done it many times.... |
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
WWDiesel wrote: thermorex wrote: WWDiesel wrote: [quote="Mountainman"]oh, 3 of the 4 holes in the crank are in good shape, the other one the bolt fits loosely. I might get enough torque on that one and add some locktite. I wonder if not, if I can tap it up a size without the larger bolt causing imbalance? They make helicoils in metric sizes, have used them many, many times, they are the best thread repair there is if you got enough metal to tap to oversize for the coil.... You pull out a HeliCoil; you have done some serious over torquing!!!! Timesert is the best . I don't like helicoil due to the small bent towards the center of the hole where you put that "key" tool to thread it in. That prevents longer bolts to go through. Timesert is a cylinder with threads outside and inside.That small part can be broke off and removed with some needle nose pliers, done it many times....[/quote] Not at all to argue with you, but I wasn't able to do it, I bent the whole thread and that sucker never broke. Maybe I got a bad batch and the precut part was not cut deep enough to break when twisting it. Anyways, I like more timesert, even if it's almost 3x the price vs helicoil. Not debating an old topic, just want to annoy you a tiny bit since it's Christmas .
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
hmm, so with either product, what keeps it from twisting out the back side when I put the bolt in? I used a helicoil once, a long time ago, but it was in a hole that had a bottom. I imagine putting a tiny bit of red locktite on a bolt, run it in the hole (painting the threads lightly), and then twist the helicoil in, and give it 24 hours? Thanks for the discussion on this 
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| Author: | thermorex [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
Google timesert and once you see how the sleeve looks, you'll understand better than I can explain. Plus it's made in good ol' usa. http://www.timesert.com For helicoil, the threaded hole in which you put the helicoil is a bit narrower than the outer helicoil diameter, and once you have the helicoil in, it expands and holds it in place. Btw, both would work, I just have a preference towards timesert due to how it's made and the foolproof working. |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
alright, I'll check them out, I appreciate it. Update: I was wrong again, one of the cams is barely scratched on one lobe, and looks to be serviceable. The other one has one lobe that is scuffed pretty bad and pitted, I wonder if I would have any problems with mismatched wear with one new cam (either new or different mileage used replacement)? |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
thermorex wrote: Not at all to argue with you, but I wasn't able to do it, I bent the whole thread and that sucker never broke. Maybe I got a bad batch and the precut part was not cut deep enough to break when twisting it. Anyways, I like more timesert, even if it's almost 3x the price vs helicoil. Not debating an old topic, just want to annoy you a tiny bit since it's Christmas .No annoyance! Never heard of them. Have used threaded inserts before, mostly in aluminum motors, heads, etc. Only problem I have had with threaded inserts is sometimes they will try to back out with the bolt when unscrewing. Had this happen many times even using locktite on outer threads. Never had a Heli-Coil back out, guess due to it being a steel spring and it locks itself under tension when you screw it into a hole. Almost impossible to get one out even if you want to, ask me how I know! I did look up the timeserts, and they are a lot more expensive than the Heli-Coil Kits. To each his own, not knocking anything I have never tried.... Some parts stores like NAPA sell Heli-Coil Kits, do any of the parts stores sell the Timesert Kits??? |
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| Author: | thermorex [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
WWDiesel wrote: thermorex wrote: Not at all to argue with you, but I wasn't able to do it, I bent the whole thread and that sucker never broke. Maybe I got a bad batch and the precut part was not cut deep enough to break when twisting it. Anyways, I like more timesert, even if it's almost 3x the price vs helicoil. Not debating an old topic, just want to annoy you a tiny bit since it's Christmas .No annoyance! Never heard of them. Have used threaded inserts before, mostly in aluminum motors, heads, etc. Only problem I have had with threaded inserts is sometimes they will try to back out with the bolt when unscrewing. Had this happen many times even using locktite on outer threads. Never had a Heli-Coil back out, guess due to it being a steel spring and it locks itself under tension when you screw it into a hole. Almost impossible to get one out even if you want to, ask me how I know! I did look up the timeserts, and they are a lot more expensive than the Heli-Coil Kits. To each his own, not knocking anything I have never tried.... Some parts stores like NAPA sell Heli-Coil Kits, do any of the parts stores sell the Timesert Kits??? I think best for timesert is to measure the torque for the sleeve and for the bolt use about 10 lb/ft less torque. But I get your point, it can come out with the sleeve, never happened to me but I barely used 2 of them on valve cover, which you don't put too much torque in those pin caps anyways |
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| Author: | BrianUnderwood [ Thu May 07, 2015 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4+ Smashed rockers, cams toast. Crank and rods ok? |
You ever get it fixed? |
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