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turbo replacement
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81685		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  its1louder [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  turbo replacement
The Turbo in my CRD is on its way out. I am considering doing the replacement myself to save money. Are there any gotchas or information out there that can help me plan for it? Any advice appreciated. THX!
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
Email me if you want a partial walk thru. Pretty simple but VERY important step is to soak the turbo to exhaust manifold nuts/studs in penetrating lube for at least 24 hrs before trying to remove turbo. The nuts are "jam" nuts and the studs are weak, ask me and geordi how we know. Ideally if you can get them out without breaking I'd replace the studs with grade 5+ and, at minimum, forget using new "jam" nuts just use regular grade 5+ nuts and lock washers which will hold fine.

PS. coolant tank can be lifted out of the way on to the fender although doing so may require removal and reinstalling with a slightly different routing one of the hoses and the tank bottom slides onto a flange so to remove the tank once the firewall nuts are removed the tank needs to slide forward a bit.
Author:  its1louder [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
Thanks for the tips, Papaindigo.

As far as a walk thru, I am watching youtube videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGM2LSz08GU and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wV5Cl3avL4 and it seems straight forward. But I may contact you anyway.

I think I need to get a parts list together so I have all the parts ready and don't have it sitting around disassembled. In addition to the turbo itself, I think I want to replace the oil feed and drain lines to the turbo. Also the studs you mention. Downloading the shop manual from the noob guide is taking forever but I need this so I know for example what torque settings for the studs. I also need to figure out how many and how long for the replacement studs. Judging from the image herehttp://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81288&p=862204&hilit=turbo#p862204 it looks like 4 or 5 studs/nuts to attach to the exhaust manifold. also want new turbo airfilter hose, the turbo output hose is a samco silicone one I put in a year or so ago when the original outlet from the intercooler cracked.

Considered the GDE Turbo but Website says some welding is required - that is more work than I am prepared to do right now.

So, parts list:
* Turbo http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=2823
* turbo inlet hose http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=3804
* x5 studs and nuts, lock washers, x thread (m8?) by y length ??? or just http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=3217
* replacement oil (fliter) http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=2391
* penetrating oil for the studs, and easy out for x thread incase it snaps
* maybe oil inlet hose? http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=3209
* maybe drain hose? idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=117&products_id=3208

anything I missed?

out the door this shopping list is $1570 after ~$110 for overnight shipping. Maybe I can get this done friday.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
There is noticeable play when you move the turbo shaft sideways relative to the sides of the bearing surfaces (axial), right?

DOC
Author:  its1louder [ Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
The diagnosis is based on sound. There is a whine and a rattle inside the turbo. Also, a lot more black smoke than usual when you demand torque through the system. I will take the coolant overflow and inlet hose off today and confirm.

We live at the top of a hill and I guess the lack of a turbo timer is catching up to us.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
If you have no axial play and barely perceptible radial play, I would check range of motion of vanes and consider cleaning before replacement. (I am not where I have the special VVT cleaner kit, but could get to it tonight and give you the info.)

DOC
Author:  its1louder [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
OK I had an interesting discovery tonight. The parts I ordered arrive tomorrow and I decided to do some prep work tonight. I wanted to get far enough that I could hose down the nuts on the exhaust manifold with pblaster to let the penetrant soak in overnight. So I took out the coolant overflow tank, the bright red samco CAC hose to the inter-cooler, the air filter box and the heat shield. When I got to the airfilter -> turbo inlet hose, it got interesting. It was very oily down there. I never did the EHM so I suspected there may be a crack in the airfilter hose. In fact, the bottom half of that hose, the part that attaches to the turbo, totally disintegrated on extraction. OK I was tugging on it a bit because its a tight spot but it totally fell apart. I think the turbo overheated enough to damage/partially melt the bottom part where it attaches. For some weeks I have heard a bit of a sucking sound that would turn on and off with what sounded like boast level so I thought it was a small leak on the boast side that would only manifest when the boast exceeded a certain level. Is it possible to have such an intermittent leak on the input side? I mean, a leak that only activates when the turbo sucks on it above a certain pressure. I gues that must be true.

Anyway it is just the last week that it started to loose power, blow smoke and make more ominous rattling sounds. That's when I assumed the turbo was gone and ordered the parts. But now I look in there and I can see a little blob of melted rubber stuck on one of the vanes. Also, there is a melted smear on the insde wall at one part where the melted blob must have stuck the vane at one time. So I am starting to hope that maybe it is not a smoked turbo after all and I won't have to go through the turbo replacement, just some careful cleaning and a new intake hose.

But not so fast. Now that I can get my hands on it, I notice exactly the opposite play as I have read that would indicate its ok. In the radial dimension there is no play at all. In the axial dimension, there is a few tens of thousandths, almost imperceptible. By radial I mean, I grab the central shaft nut between index and thumb and try to bend the shaft side to side. By axial I mean, push it in and out along the shaft. Isn't this the opposite of what I should see if it is not damaged?

Anyway, its worth a try to just clean it in place, put the new airfilter hose and all the rest of the parts back and see if it sounds better. What sorts of solvents are ok to use for cleaning? Carb cleaner seems potentially explosive for a diesel system. I suspect I will just use tweezers to scrape the little blob off mechanically and hope for the best.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8vb7H ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8vb7H ... sp=sharing
Author:  its1louder [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
I am so doinga turbo timer if this inlet hose replacement works.
Author:  dirtmover [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
its1louder wrote:
OK I had an interesting discovery tonight...

...I never did the EHM so I suspected there may be a crack in the airfilter hose. In fact, the bottom half of that hose, the part that attaches to the turbo, totally disintegrated on extraction....

This is a common failure point. This leak will appear as unmetered air so checking MAF at idle regularly may have helped identity this issue sooner.
Author:  thermorex [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  turbo replacement
its1louder wrote:
I am so doinga turbo timer if this inlet hose replacement works.


Based on your posts input, seems the turbo is fine. The air turbo inlet has those issues because of the oil not heat. As dirtmover said its a common failure point. Crank case oil vapors are recirculated back to the turbo and the air turbo inlet hose is not made from silicone and it rots. There are 2 ways you can prevent such a failure in the future. First and cheapest is to measure exactly 6 litters of oil on your next oil change and don't put a drop more. The excess of oil gets blown through the ccv back through the turbo inlet hose. You'll need to mark your dipstick where the 6 litter oil mark is, also factoring the oil filter. Second and more expensive is to install a provent-like oil-air separator and very important, the oil draining hose from provent needs to have a release valve if you dump the oil under the jeep OR if you recirculate it ABOVE the oil level in the engine oil pan. If you connect the draining oil hose in the oil pan, no need for release valve.

Having a boost gauge would let you know further boost issues and having an egt gauge would let you know when is safe to turn engine off (below 350F I one consider safe - I wait till 300) or how hard can you can safely accelerate (ideally, under 1000F). Those 2 gauges help monitoring the health of the turbo.
Author:  papaindigo [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
Exact amount of oil depends on filter size - 6.3-6.4qts for stock size filter vs. 7qts for oversize filter.

Acceptable turbo shaft play is slight in/out and barely perceptible side to side so your amount of play sounds about right.

Air box to turbo hose will eventually rot on the bottom just in front of the turbo inlet which is directly below where the CCV hose plugs in. As noted overfilling with oil just causes more to blow thru CCV which is bad but even with a proper fill amount the CCV will always weep a bit of oil. Best check that house at each oil fill especially after about 25k miles. Mine is still ok at 50k but my son's went at about 35k
Author:  its1louder [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
I never did the EHM because I live in California and have to do an emissions check every 2 years. I didn't think venting crankcase vapors would pass the test. So I guess I will have to inspect the hose every third oil change or something (I change oil approx every 3500 miles). Or maybe take my chances with the EHM.

I do have a GDE mild tune because the CAC hose from the intercooler to the EGR elbow would pop off every thousand miles or so if I didn't. Not to get too off topic, but In high boost situations the combination of charge air coming in mixed with exhaust gas would be too much pressure and pop the hose off. I theorized that the EGR delete feature of the GDE tune would fix that and it does - I am like 60kmiles on without that CAC hose popping off at the intake elbow and leaving my wife stranded (this happened to her and two dogs and infant son 200 miles from no where). A couple years after that CAC hose failed due to all the oil so I replaced it with the bright red samco silicone ones.

So according to tracking my replacement parts are out for delivery now. It looks like I will be returning the turbo and installing the intake hose. A couple questions for you experts: Should I take the turbo off anyway since I have gotten this far so I can inspect it and make sure nothing on the back end is damaged? This seems unnecessarilly risky given the problems others have had with the exhaust manifold studs. But it would allow me to replace the oil supply and drain lines I also ordered. Also any pointers on how I should clean it now that I have access? I am going to mechanically remove the offending blob on the one vane but I am afraid to shoot any solvents down there like I would do carb cleaner on a gasoline car. maybe diesel itself is a good safe solvent?
Author:  its1louder [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
OK I looked a little closer this morning and the Oil supply and drain lines do not look possible to replace without removing the turbo. I cleaned up all the oil that had been venting from the busted intake hose and I guess everything looks ok in there. I do not think I will be removing the turbo after the horror stories I have read about broken studs. And its sat all night with pblaster on it but I just don't want to risk it now. Any one in the monterey bay area who wants a brand new turbo with oil lines? And exhaust studs too. Looks like I am returning all of it if the only thing I use is the intake hose.

I am pretty excited about not needing to replace the turbo. But I still want to clean the vanes while I have access. I have not chipped that blob off yet, its hard to get in there and see it. In fact my cell phone pictures are the best view I've gotten, it makes a pretty handy inspection device because it gets in where my head can't. I might end up doing it by feel with my finger nail.

I looked through my garage and I have some Mass airflow sensor cleaner. IT occurs to me this should be a safe solvent since it gets sprayed on the intake side of the turbo when you clean the MAF sensor.
Author:  its1louder [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
Right got it all back together with the new inlet hose and - yeah the turbo is dying. I took it for a test drive. I live on a hill so coming back up requires some torque and boost. In the past it would spin up and you'd hear a subtle whistle, what I expect from a turbo. Now its less of a whistle than a drone. Literally it sounds more like a drone quad copter or something. Also, when torque/boost goes up more, there starts to be a rattling sound. So I am waiting for it to cool down so I can take it apart again. Maybe I am not so good at judging play with my finger tips. Looks like I am going to use that new turbo right here after all.
Author:  jeepdan [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
"Piece of melted rubber on compressor vanes"? "Rubber smear in housing"
Is it possible that the turbo sucked in a piece of rotted inlet hose, and threw the turbo out of balance enough to wreck it?
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
Another way to put it is if you grab the shaft in the center and you move it laterally, there should be NO play at ALL. If you move it up and down, even brand new turbos have just a tiny bit of play.

DOC
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
its1louder wrote:
I never did the EHM because I live in California and have to do an emissions check every 2 years. I didn't think venting crankcase vapors would pass the test. So I guess I will have to inspect the hose every third oil change or something (I change oil approx every 3500 miles). Or maybe take my chances with the EHM.

Do not do the EHM, it is not the best option for your motor! Install a ProVent or Racor filter instead! :wink:
There is a long thread on this forum that explains all the technical details and reasons of why not to do the EHM and install a ProVent or Racor filter instead...
Read all about it at:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80491&hilit

The important thing is to get the oil out of the intake pipe to prevent future deterioration and possible failure along with any build up in the CAC. Anyone still running a functioning EGR system really needs one of these filters to prevent the horrible goo mix of oil and soot buildup in the intake manifold!!! :roll:
Author:  its1louder [ Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
So yesterday I got all the easy stuff out of the way (again) - the coolant overflow is out, the airfilter box is out the CAC goes inta and new inlet elbow and a bunch of the wiring harness to the MAF etc. Then I removed the support bracket and started working on the exhaust nuts. I think the PBlaster helped a lot because I got the three easy nuts off with no trouble with a combination of reaching from above or underneath. From underneath I also got the oil drain line out with little difficulty although my socket extension intefering with the drainline caused the socket to not go on straight and I rounded the hex head off - rookie move - but I got it eventually with another tool and its a warning of what not to do with the last exhaust nut.

That top front bolt for the exhaust is just... ridiculous. Are you kidding me? I think you need to have tiny little lady fingers to get your hand up there from below and then shoulders like a gorilla to get any torque on it. Is that what they have for tractor mechanics in Italy? Lady gorillas? I had a scheme to get at it from below. I tried to get a slim ratcheting box end 13 mm on it from below, and then put a half inch breaker on the open end of that to increase torque. 1/2 inch is 12.5mm so it just about fits. But engineering that setup by myself isn't working. I am going to go to sears and see if I can find a long, slim 13mm to get more torque. I could also rap it with a hammer but I am really afraid of breaking the stud after all I have read. Guess I will go buy a stud extractor too since it may come to that.

Plan B is I read someone else pulled off the turbo regulator thingy and got at it from above, but I don't want to destroy this turbo more than I have to. I don't know why, I guess that is just crossing the rubicon of reversibility - right now I still have the liberty to put everything back except that stripped bolt.
Author:  thermorex [ Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
If you have extra few minutes, take some pics, that will help future work by other people.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: turbo replacement
its1louder wrote:
OK I had an interesting discovery tonight. The parts I ordered arrive tomorrow and I decided to do some prep work tonight. I wanted to get far enough that I could hose down the nuts on the exhaust manifold with pblaster to let the penetrant soak in overnight. So I took out the coolant overflow tank, the bright red samco CAC hose to the inter-cooler, the air filter box and the heat shield. When I got to the airfilter -> turbo inlet hose, it got interesting. It was very oily down there. I never did the EHM so I suspected there may be a crack in the airfilter hose. In fact, the bottom half of that hose, the part that attaches to the turbo, totally disintegrated on extraction. OK I was tugging on it a bit because its a tight spot but it totally fell apart. I think the turbo overheated enough to damage/partially melt the bottom part where it attaches. For some weeks I have heard a bit of a sucking sound that would turn on and off with what sounded like boast level so I thought it was a small leak on the boast side that would only manifest when the boast exceeded a certain level. Is it possible to have such an intermittent leak on the input side? I mean, a leak that only activates when the turbo sucks on it above a certain pressure. I gues that must be true.


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