LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Aftermarket turbo option
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82108		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Aftermarket turbo option
Been working with a guy who is interested in creating an option for a more robust, reliable, and better turbo system for our CRD's. It's painfully obvious that the turbos are known for going out.

I'm at a crossroads and I need some help in determining what way to go, so I'm turning to you guys for the answer.

Either way they will be very high quality units, cast in 316 stainless (he refuses to do cast iron) for the best in corrosion and heat resistance. And also made in USA.

My first idea was to have a ball bearing turbo redisgned to bolt into our factory exhaust housing. This would require removing the turbo from the engine, removing the turbine housing from the factory turbo and installing it onto the new turbo. Everything will bolt into place with no modification. This will cost more to bring to the market because a whole new center section has to be designed, tested, then molds made and machined. It also leaves you with the factory manifold and factory style turbo.

The other option is to just design and make a new exhaust manifold with a common flange, t25. Then any common turbo can bolt on. This would obviously require changing the manifold, and changing the oil lines (easy to do, might even offer pre-made lines).

Either way should standard option will be able to use a new vnt ball bearing turbo I'm working on. It's just one way opens up the possibilities a bit more.

Prices are not yet known as I don't know which way to go, but either avenue will end up about the same. Trying to stay around the $1500 mark.
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Its hard to say. Really depends on $$$.

I like the idea of an adapter plate that will allow any standard flange turbo to bolt on.
But then there are other things like attaching the exhaust pipe, oil feed, and oil drain lines. And of course inlet and outlet hose connections.

Without knowing what model T25 turbo will fit and work, I really don't know.
Will it be a VNT or traditional waste-gate?
What kind of ECU programming will be required?

A $250 turbo can quickly become $1100 with all the additional parts and pieces to make it all work.
Author:  65Corvair [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
I would like to see a custom exhaust manifold with a "off the shelf" turbo. That way if the new trubo ever dies, (10-20 years from now)it will be much easier to get a replacement.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
If we adapt a turbo to the old turbine housing, everything should stay the same.

I can't say much about the new turbo, it's like vnt but uses an "accelerator valve" that actually changes the a/r of the housing. It's mechanically operated so the vnt control can be deleted out of the programming, along with all the vacuum mechanics that go with it.

The turbo is based on a gt22 frame turbo (factory is gt20) but will have a 60mm billet wheel. a couple pounds of boost at idle should be possible.

Same turbo will be used either way, one way retains the factory system, but will require a huge investment of time and money to redesign.

The other uses a preexisting turbo, only investment will be a new exhaust manifold that will be cast out of stainless as well with bosses for temp and pressure probes. Intake and boost hoses should slip right on.
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Any more details about the turbo?
What is the Garrett model number?
What do you estimate the cost of just the turbo, unmodified?
Why cant a adapter plate be used between the existing manifold and turbo? Will it not fit?
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue May 12, 2015 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
The turbo will begin life as a standard ball bearing gt2252 turbo from KPA turbos. Garret stops the ball bearing turbos at the gt2560r. It'll get stripped of its compressor and replaced with a 60mm billet unit, and then acclerator valve housing will get put on the back. I can't say much about the new housing because it is not my idea and it hasn't been introduced yet.

I would guess the price of an unmodified turbo would be somewhere around $800-$900.

Believe it or not the price of an adapter is close to what it costs to get a batch of manifolds made. Reason being is either one has to be drawn on CAD first. The manifold can go into a 3d printer and be made out of wax for a lost wax cast. Machine the sides that bolt to the head and turbo and it's done.

The adapter has to be cut out of plate steel, a 4'x8' sheet of 3/4" steel isn't cheap. Then you have to machine both sides of both pieces flat, contour a hole in a rectangle in one, and then drill and tap them to bolt together. Sounds simple but that's alot of time and steps that add up. Plus you go from 4 bolts bolting the turbo on to 12, and an extra gasket. I know because I used an adapter. can you make it yourself? Absolutely, go for it.

I want to supply a kit that will last forever, here's a pic of a manifold he makes for turbocharging snowmobiles:Image
Very high quality, very nice finish, top of the line work.

We are still in talks and things most likely can/will change, I just wanted to get an idea of what the majority of you guys thought. Even if you don't plan on doing anything with turbos, please take a second to vote so I can get a clearer image of what would be best. Like 65corvair said, they didn't make many of these, and in 10-20 years how many factory style turbos do you think will be floating around? The t25 bolt pattern has been around for ATLEAST 30 years.
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Thanks.
Good info.

Looks kike the gt2252 is originally a regular waste gated turbo.
I'd be interested to know how they modify it.

BTW, I saw a T25 adaptor plate on ebay for about $130 that will fit the CRD exhaust manifold.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Yep, the guy that I bought my adapter and turbo project from had originally had that guy make the first ones. He thought it would be a gold mine so he made more, I don't think he's sold any. If you buy a set there drilled and tapped backwards so you have to drill/tap next largest size up. The the bolt heads are too tall and hit the turbo so you have to machine the heads down to fit. Also the hole doesn't quite blend right with the manifold, so you have to get in there with a die grinder and open it back up.

I was quoted if I bought 25 sets of manifolds they'd probably be $200-$250 a piece, hardly worth messing with the adapters in my opinion.

I know this isn't going to be a hot selling item, and I'm not gonna try to make a living off selling these, so prices will be as low as possible. Been throwing around the idea of putting a small website up and offering larger injector nozzles, as well as all aluminum boost tubes since i have my own exhaust bender. I have a place that can make any kind of cooler/radiator you want that I thought about having all aluminum intercoolers made. but I don't want to step on weeks101 toes since I heard he's doing something similar.
Author:  dennyb [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
If the cost is around 1,000 I'll just by the Green Diesel Engineering unit. His $2500 kit includes adaptor for manifold mounted to turbo, Custom exhaust pipe, And performance tune matched to new turbo (his other tunes cost 500 alone). He dyno tested it to 218hp and 400lb/ft max (torque limited to 270 lb/ft in torque convertor lockup)

From GDE site description.
The Stage II Turbo kit for the Jeep Liberty CRD centers on a new turbo charger assembly. The turbo is a generation III version of the production turbo on the KJ. This turbo has higher rpm limits, pushes more air and has a smaller frame size with lower rotating inertia. The core benefits with this turbo include faster boost spool up providing quicker response and increased passing capability, improved fuel economy, and increased top end performance. This turbo is not controlled with vacuum, but employs an REA actuator with PWM control. This actuator is a much more accurate method of controlling boost pressure, much faster response time at sea level and in altitude. The turbo kit will require welding on the exhaust system due to different exhaust downpipe and a couple wiring changes to power the turbo. A mounting boss for a thermocouple will be included on the exhaust downpipe. The kit will contain all hardware necessary to perform the upgrade with detailed instructions to allow self installation if you are so inclined. Otherwise a professional mechanic can complete the upgrade for your vehicle.

- What comes in the box:

- Brand new turbocharger assembly, modified by Green Diesel for fitment on the KJ engine
- Wiring connection to adapt previous connection to vacuum modulator to REA on new turbo
- New oil feed and drain lines
- New support bracket
- New turbo downpipe. You will remove the stock downpipe in front of the flexible coupling and attach the new downpipe.
- The kit will have provisions already included for installing an EGT probe pre- and/or post-turbine. Both locations will be plugged upon delivery, simply unscrew the one
you wish to instrument and install your thermocouple.
- New ECU tune (this is mandatory and is included in the price of the kit). No other tune (our Eco-tune, OEM, etc) will be compatible with this turbocharger.
- See more at: http://www.greendieselengineering.com/j ... gwwjd.dpuf
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Yep, I've met Kieth and have been to his shop. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't be able to run the wastegated turbo I have.

Most folks already have a GDE tune, it's only a small fee to change tunes, so all they'll have to do is get a new tune from gde.

The point of what I'm doing is making things simple and creating a solution that will open up the possibilities tremendously since you won't be stuck with only one turbo.

GDE's turbo spools sooner because of a smaller frame size. But it's still a journal bearing turbo with a large thrust washer, this requires lots of oil and creates lots of drag, slowing spool up,that's fact. Ball bearing turbos use angular contact bearings that eliminate thrust washers, coupled with needing only minor oiling, drag is reduced and spool up time is quicker. I went from using a -3 oil feed line to using an .011" restrictor, 20,000+ miles and turbo is still going strong.

You still have to take the manifold off to weld on the adapter to use GDE's turbo, you still have to cut and modify the downpipe, you still have to remove the vacuum actuation assembly, still have to change the oil lines, and still have to retune, so tell me what's the difference?

I'm not saying anyone's kit is better, or telling anyone which kit to get, I'm just trying to create another choice. But right now all I'm after is to see which route people think is best.

*edit* here's a link to a quick comparison summary of ball bearing vs journal bearing on garretts website: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... l_bearings
Author:  Mike92104 [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
I voted on the new manifold. Thanks for all of your work.
Author:  tcoilburner [ Tue May 12, 2015 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
X2 on the new manifold
Author:  Srytrucker [ Wed May 13, 2015 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
My Vote is for a new adapter bracket kit that will allow other generic turbo to be mounted on. I would have got myself the GDE Kit as it is a great value with the tune thrown in except for that it uses crappy OEM turbo. I would love to have brackets kit and mount a ball bearing turbo with larger injectors. :JEEPIN:
Author:  Mike92104 [ Wed May 13, 2015 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Something to be considered is whether you want a bracket to bolt onto your 10 year old manifold (that might be hard to find later), or a new manifold. That's why I voted for the manifold.
Author:  dirtmover [ Wed May 13, 2015 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
diesel_guy86 wrote:
Like 65corvair said, they didn't make many of these, and in 10-20 years how many factory style turbos do you think will be floating around? The t25 bolt pattern has been around for ATLEAST 30 years.

Wow, how many CRDs do you actually expect to still be running in 20 years? I'm hoping for another 4-6. If I do have to replace my turbo the factory crappy unit should last it for the rest of its days :dead:. I don't see much value in paying a hefty premium for a solution that will outlast the vehicle by a huge margin.
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed May 13, 2015 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Quote:
I was quoted if I bought 25 sets of manifolds they'd probably be $200-$250 a piece, hardly worth messing with the adapters in my opinion.


Thats not too bad for a custom made exhaust manifold.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Wed May 13, 2015 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
With the right parts the engine should last as long as any, the bodies will rust away first.

Main problems are; rockers, egr, ccv, headgasket, thermostat, and turbo.

There is literally a fix for every single one of those problems (rockers are due to the 0w40 oil) egr is handled by GDE and weeks101, ccv by the ehm or provent, arp studs solved head gasket issues, turbo diesel freak created a marvelous thermostat, only thing left is turbo.

If others turbos haven't gone out yet, how many posts have there been about sticking vanes, vacuum solenoid shorting out etc? The first question asked when someone posts about black smoke or low power shouldn't be, "did you check your turbo?" That is the LAST question asked on any of the powerstroke, cummins, duramax, isuzu, or vw forums. Ours should be the same.

Again, I'm not twisting anyone's arms to buy anything, but this should be the last piece to truly turn these engines into the reliable mechanical heart it should be. I just hope things can come through and I can put back into the forum what I get out of it. Without it we'd all be stranded on the road somewhere.
Author:  95Z28A4 [ Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Updates?
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
I've got my GDE turbo so I don't have a dog in this chat but there are some comments posted that need a bit of clarity.
1. the GDE Stage II turbo list price includes the turbo specific ECU tune if you do not already have a GDE tune. If you already have a GDE tune there is a discount, I don't recall how much as it's been a while, to the list price such that all you pay for is a tune modification.
2. you do not have to remove the intake manifold to install the GDE Stage II turbo. It bolts right on although removal of the OEM nuts without breaking the studs can be a challenge. You do have to weld on the new section of down pipe but that can be done on the vehicle.
3. the GDE Stage II turbo is not the same as the OEM turbo. It is a newer design electrically controlled (not like OEM that uses vacuum) Garrett turbo. That said it's not ball bearing. I have no opinion on ball bearing vs. sleeve bearing as it pertains to turbo performance; with respect to durability any thing that spins on any kind of bearing can "die" if not continuously supplied with a sufficient quantity of the proper oil.
Author:  mass-hole [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aftermarket turbo option
Any updates on this. I seriously want a turbo that can supply me at least 21psi at 6500 feet like the stock one does at sea level. Turning 265/70's on Moabs at 6500 ft sucks even with the GDE hot tune.

I cant even imagine how the dude down the street from me with the SAS'd 3.7L liberty manages on tires bigger than mine.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/