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| Valve. The other other white meat. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82472 |
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| Author: | geordi [ Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Valve. The other other white meat. |
I'm working on a CRD right now in Savannah, first time in a long while that I'm actually able to say I am IN Savannah - and of course it is about 30 degrees cooler than the surface of the sun during the day. Woo wee it is hot. This CRD has the usual story - had the timing belt done by "a mechanic" with no info about whether they knew what they were doing or not. I suspect it was a mark-and-pray type of job. The CRD drove away from the work, and drove for about 100-200 miles or so... Then stopped dead at speed. I don't know what speed or the circumstances, but my suspicion was that it was fairly sudden and without any noticeable cataclysm to be remembered easily. The CRD refused to restart, and was towed back to the mechanic. At some point he decided it was a fuel-related problem and threw up his hands and gave up. The CRD was then pulled to a dealership. At this point, the scenario becomes a little fuzzy for me. The thing still refused to start from what I understand, but it did rotate. Then at some point it stopped even wanting to rotate, and since the dealership also was unable to do anything for any reasonable cost or expectation of success (typical) the CRD was recovered and sat for the next 2 years in a driveway. Fast forward to today - I start tearing it down and get to the timing belt, and try to bar it over from the crankshaft. No dice. Try to go backwards... Get about 1/4 inch of rotation. Seriously, that was it. Back forward - maybe it was just stuck from corrosion... Nope. Zilch, except that 1/4 inch. This sucker is jammed tight on something. #1, #2, #3 injectors all come out by hand and easily... OF COURSE the bugger is the #4. It came out finally (still by hand!) and what do I see? Smashed injector tip. It looks like it was dropped or whacked with a hammer pretty good. Pull the valve cover and (no shock) I find 4 broken rockers on the intake side - one BADLY trashed lifter on the #2 cylinder... And the #4 last intake valve stem is 1 inch taller than all the others. Uh-oh. The valve stem pulls out cleanly from the hole, and seems to have just sheared off square with the stem. Obviously the valve is what has jammed the motor, I *really* hope it did this while the engine was just being turned by the starter - I think that is plausible b/c otherwise the rest of the intake rockers should be broken, right? I won't know more until the head is pulled, which absolutely has to happen now (bugger), but I'm hopeful that the piston isn't trashed. Why would this happen? This is at least the 5th one I've heard about swallowing a valve. Is this another design issue we need to address, or just a statistical probability coming to fruition? |
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| Author: | bugnout [ Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Did it appear that the crank and cam timing was correct? Interested to see what the piston looks like. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
bugnout wrote: Did it appear that the crank and cam timing was correct? Interested to see what the piston looks like. No clue on the timing - can't rotate anything to get it to a check point. I'm assuming the timing was botched by a mark-and-pray method. How you mark and pray and change the water pump at the same time... I have no clue. Without any way to lock the cams, they could be just about anywhere in the cycle if you don't use the pins. |
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| Author: | olypopper [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
I wager the engine is trashed. Had this happen on a marine 5.7 recently............my favorite dish, carnage esada! |
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| Author: | KC-CRD [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
olypopper wrote: I wager the engine is trashed. Define trashed. As long as there are no recently added holes in the block it should be rebuild-able. It's just at what point do you write off the vehicle as being too expensive to fix. $350 for a piston/sleeve. The rockers were already expected to be bad, but the lifter and a few new values are added $$$. With geordi's labor I'd guess the repair is already into the $3k range. Since I really like my CRD, for me it would be getting close to deciding if I wanted to repair vs using it as a serviceable core for a brand new engine. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
That is the question mark, to be sure. I'm not entirely certain of the history on the engine between the point that it had the timing belt done (with a factory kit, no less - Goodyear belt and plastic water pump checking in) and today. Things that I have found that don't impress me much: There was basically NO WATER in the engine. I drained the radiator b/c I know I will be opening the water system when I finally get to lifting the head... And only got out about a quart. I don't know when the water was intentionally drained, or IF it was intentional. - If the engine was run for any length of time without water, then I think the chances of this motor being salvaged just went down precipitously. Like off-a-cliff-into-the-ocean bad. I found a fair amount of water in the rear EGR pipe, and when I pulled off the CAC hose before pulling the FCV etc, I got a shoe full of oily water. I thought it might have been mostly oil... But now with the EGR pipe, I'm thinking it was mostly water. I *strongly* suspect the EGR cooler has a hole in it. The amount of rusticles on the exhaust manifold suggest that this engine lived a large portion of its life underwater in the ocean. As far as I know, this isn't a rust-belt car though. This hasn't made removing any of the nuts any easier, let me tell you. The next step is removing the turbo - I thought I could get the manifold off without removing the turbo first... That isn't going to happen. Bugger. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I think we have a confirmed kill. |
I think we might have a confirmed kill here.      Ouch. This must have sounded like rocks in a coffee can... In a blender... run over by a steamroller. I can't imagine the cataclysm that happened to cause this level of disaster. What happens next is TBD - Now I have to get in touch with the owner and give them the bad news. |
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| Author: | Mountainman [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Phew, and I was wondering through the whole thread if this was the one you'd picked up for yourself! You probably said that one ran 
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
The one I got for myself did start - and made a tapping sound. The last one that I had the fuel rail apart on (in San Francisco) also was tapping in the same way, but it was due to air in the fuel rail that cleared itself. When I first got to it, the fuel rail and 2 injectors were not installed, so that could easily be the same explanation with mine. But I need to tear it down anyway, as there is a suspected (reported) object in one of the cylinders. This carnage is not on my Jeep, and I feel for the owner. This thing is pretty well totaled, depending on what they want to do with it. |
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| Author: | Mike92104 [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
From what I can see, it looks like that engine was whipped and abused on a regular basis Those other cylinders look terrible. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Mike92104 wrote: From what I can see, it looks like that engine was whipped and abused on a regular basis Those other cylinders look terrible. Don't forget - it hasn't rotated at all in over 2 years, and apparently also didn't have any water in it for that same amount of time. Don't judge the other cylinders too harshly. The underside of the rest of the head doesn't look terrible, although the outside of the engine did have more than its share of filth and grease on it. The owner didn't buy it new either, they are (IIRC) the third owner. So the total history is still something of a mystery. I don't know if the end of the road has been reached though, or if it can be resurrected. The owner has to tell me what to do next. |
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| Author: | jws84_02 [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Putting abuse and poor maintenance aside, what is your guess as to what happened here? Rockers not breaking like they are suppose too? |
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| Author: | Hexus [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Honestly, I would probably account this to some of the failures I've seen that have been similar on the top end. Albeit the ones I have seen have all been Rocker/Lifter breaks. It is my opinion after looking at several of these that this is an oil acidity issue combined with the metallurgy of the components used in the top end. I don't believe the metals they used for the Rockers or Lifters on some of the runs of these vehicles had the right metallurgy to stand up to prolonged (100,000+ Miles) exposure to EGR filth-laden oil. I've seen lifters that, for all intents and purposes, shattered for no good reason. Needle bearings inside the race of the rockers fail or disintegrate causing rocker/lifter damages, and now we see valves sheared off cleanly after being hit why? Probably for the same reasons. There have been some who have been lucky, run 250,000 miles + and haven't seen any issue, but there have been a lot of incidents like these that we're seeing lately as well. This very well be a maintenance issue, with not using the correct oil. One of the Jeeps I worked on the guy was using 5w-30 fully synthetic for the last 3 oil changes because it was "What he had." That's a pretty expensive mistake to make over some oil...... But it only took about 2-3 oil changes using that 5w-30 oil instead of a good 0W-40 Diesel or 5w-40 synthetic made-for-diesel-oil. Just my humble opinion. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Yeah - I was only using the Rislone for 3 oil changes, and even if I didn't screw up and grab the wrong bottle and put in a motor flush instead of the zinc additive... It still went downhill after just 3 oil changes. These things do NOT like problems and don't suffer for long.  Here is the parts list that I see - using everything from IDparts, but not looking for a reman head from VM Specialist or trying to get the injector rebuilt. There are some savings to be found with both of those options (maybe on the injector) and then it might not need the entire timing kit but at this point... Why not price it too? Then there is the labor for all this... I'm not confident in my ability to do the piston replacement even IF I could pull the engine, which I also don't have the knowledge or facility for. There is a guy locally who is a Jeep specialist that might be able to pull the block and put it on a stand to do the piston, I don't know how much he would want for that, I'm guessing it is about another 5 hours to get it out and then who knows for breaking down the bottom end and the reinstall... Even if he put it back to this point and I did the rest - that is STILL another 2 grand in labor just on my end, 20 hours of work easily. I'm already into it for about 12 hours on the disassembly. What a mess. |
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| Author: | Mike92104 [ Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
I'm becoming more and more interested in these: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/H ... 46304.html I know they're Chinese, but we all know the italians didn't exactly do a great job either. My rebuilt engine is running strong, but I'm tempted to buy a spare for later. |
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| Author: | KC-CRD [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Wow, those pictures are painful. And with that parts total, I'd be talking to a DCJ dealer on a new motor. The high bid that I got earlier this year was $7000 plus core on a brand new factory supplied motor. My problem was I didn't have a good core ($3500). I can't remember if they include turbo, but they are complete including injection pump and injectors. You might get lucky and find a better deal on a head, even if you import a used one. Or maybe a REALLY good machine shop. But from this distance I'm not sure those liners are serviceable. It may just be the pictures, but they look rusty (pitted). Liners are relatively cheap, but would you be comfortable replacing a liner without changing the piston? I didn't see a gasket kit on the list either. Or main bearings. Where you saying something about needing bottom end experience? |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
KC-CRD wrote: Wow, those pictures are painful. And with that parts total, I'd be talking to a DCJ dealer on a new motor. The high bid that I got earlier this year was $7000 plus core on a brand new factory supplied motor. My problem was I didn't have a good core ($3500). I can't remember if they include turbo, but they are complete including injection pump and injectors. You might get lucky and find a better deal on a head, even if you import a used one. Or maybe a REALLY good machine shop. But from this distance I'm not sure those liners are serviceable. It may just be the pictures, but they look rusty (pitted). Liners are relatively cheap, but would you be comfortable replacing a liner without changing the piston? I didn't see a gasket kit on the list either. Or main bearings. Where you saying something about needing bottom end experience? Was that 7K installed? How much of the old engine did they *actually* need back as a core? It might make the job suck a lot less if some of the critical parts here could be retained. I know that DCJ isn't going to rebuild the engine themselves, they are most likely just going to scrap / shred the block and be done with it and the parts. It would be a shame to throw away a potentially $1800 injection pump and $900 in injectors. The chances of finding a machine shop that could rebuild this head... Yeah, I don't see that happening. It is mangled pretty badly. I suppose if someone were crazy enough and skilled enough with a TIG welder they could polish off the high parts and melt some aluminum into the low parts and level it... But there are other heads available, so why spend the effort for a *maybe* result? Granted, I priced everything out as *new* parts, so that $4400 is a worst-case right now, but if I wanted / needed to replace all 4 pistons and liners b/c of rust or whatever, then that is $1400 JUST in pistons and liners. Saving money with a boneyard head from Europe is one thing, but you can't escape the cost of the pistons if they need to be done. They have to be new. I'm not sure if the pistons absolutely *have to* be changed when you change the liners, this is one of the things where my experience is not so complete. As far as bottom end experience and parts... I did have one bearing kit on the list just in case that cylinder managed to damage the bearing, but I don't think it had enough time running to really do that. What I'm concerned about is the potential to have damaged the crankshaft. I haven't ever done anything other than disassemble a truly destroyed block that was out of the engine bay, so doing anything with this would still be beyond my comfort zone. I am planning to try barring it over now, to see if the thing even wants to rotate with as few obstructions as possible. If it doesn't... Then I'd say it has a bent crankshaft and is truly cooked. I also need to look at options for a motor from junkyards, that may just end up being a lot better of an idea, core or not. |
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| Author: | Dent [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
LKQ in Savannah has a junkyard motor for $3200. |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
I suspect it was a broken ceramic glow plug tip flying around the chamber snapping valves. And Jim..... you're wimping out. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Valve. The other other white meat. |
Dent wrote: LKQ in Savannah has a junkyard motor for $3200. Hmm, now that is interesting. I hadn't even had a chance to look yet, b/c I was driving back from an event (actually related to my actual primary career in the film industry!) in Atlanta today. I know someone that had 2 CRDs in Savannah here, and another person that was a member here that lived NW of Savannah about 30 minutes or so away. I hope this isn't any of their trucks, but that is worth checking out. I know exactly where that LKQ is, and they have a u-pick-it yard too. Maybe they pulled the block and left the shell for the buzzards... 
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