Need some CRD work done in NoVa/DMV area

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

What's up guys, need your help. My lady has our crd back in Virginia and it's running hot. It started before we left Colorado. I did the head gasket, studs, water pump, etc. But I didn't have time to have the head checked for cracks or warpage. We towed it back to Virginia and realized the problem is still there... I'm am not though. Around town it's typically fine but highway driving or hill climbing it heats up quickly.

The heater core had a tiny drip too.

Her family took it to there mechanic and, well... That was useless. I need someone who can check it out, accurately diagnose and fix the issues. PM me for my contact number or post here and I'll contact you.

Thanks guys, she's coming back out to Colorado August 1 so we're needing it done by August 1st at the latest.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:21 pm

You might check with geordi but I don't know that this is something he would be willing to tackle. Thoughts:
1. how may miles on your OEM thermostat. They normally fail open or opening so undercooling is the issue but the reverse is possible.
2. with a minimum of effort you can bypass the viscous heater (or just shut it off by pulling the relay in the power distribution center - see Owner's Manual for which one) and the heater core by just looping the inflow/outflow lines together. Does problem go away?
3. check some way to get actual coolant temp readings in case the sending unit in the tstat housing is bad and reading high which is possible. An inexpensive IR temperature gun can do this and I know geordi has posted good readings at the tstat for a normal engine (pm or email him if need be).
4. when it gets hot does turning the heat on high bring the temp gauge back down.
5. check temp gauge calibration - Instrument cluster test can be invoked by holding the trip odometer button while turning the ignition on. It will cycle through all bulbs and gauges. This is an actual function test that's separate from check light test that's run every time you switch the ignition on. I cannot find a nice simple summary of what it does in sequence but the 2006 FSM, which refers to this as the Instrument Cluster Self Test, (beginning on page 8J-65 and scattered thru various pages to 8J-87) does discuss what the test is supposed to do with respect to various lights and gauges on the dash. For 2005 owners the FSM, which refers to this as the Instrument Cluster Actuator Test, does not provide the same level of detail but the procedure is briefly outlined beginning on page 8J-8. Oddly the separate 2005 KJ Body manual does have more detail and refers to the test as the Instrument Cluster Self Test. Go figure. Per lgoodbar the analog gauge needle postions in this test are: Fuel: E, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, F; Temp: C, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, F; Speedometer: 0, 30, 60, 90, 120; Tachometer: 0, 1000, 3000, 5000
6. there are ways the check coolant flow but that's not my area so...

A quick and dirty head gasket check - on a cold (overnight) engine, crack open the coolant tank cap, replace, crank up and idle for like 10-15 seconds, shut down, crack open the coolant tank cap. If no pressure head is likely ok; if pressure head likely has problems. Any sign of coolant loss?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:32 pm

don't forget the fan clutch.

OEM start bad and die quickly

also if you got dirt/mud/ stuff in the radiator fins - it can be hard to see - but blocks a lot airflow

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

problem is, I'm in Colorado. I'm a Ferrari tech out here and I could have it shipped to me but for ease of the situation I was hoping to just have someone check it out there. Believe me, that's hard for me to do, lol.

All components of the cooling system have less then 1k, same with timing components, and head gasket. Exception being the radiator but I have done two fan clutches. One hd and now oem

System won't/shouldn't build pressure because there is a minute leak in the heater core. Co2 test would be more accurate I would think.

Turning on the heat does bring the temp down but eventually it will rise with the heat on too.

I'll have her do the cold test just for gp. It would lose coolant before but it never surfaced in the vacant side of the reservoir or the oil and it would only lose a small amount over a lengthy time.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

I discovered the heater core because I parked up on a wall at work one day and had a puddle under the condensation drain, tasted like HOAT

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:23 am

I saw your post before - I'm in the midst (finishing) a CRD travel trip right now, so that was why I didn't reply before.

When you say that "all" the cooling system components are new, does this specifically include the thermostat and the water pump? Who did the work, is it possible they buggered the hose routing and somehow it is feeding back into itself? The factory thermostat generally does fail open, but there have been a couple that have gone the other way. Within 1k miles is a bit suspect, but then again - what parts were swapped? Which fan clutch does it have on it right now? There are precisely ZERO reasons that I would ever suggest to run the OEM clutch, they are all trash as has been said already. The Hayden is a much superior unit in all respects.

I have another member requesting assistance in the general vicinity of DC, so perhaps we could work something out. Fair warning, this has me scratching my head at the moment.

My first thoughts would be to isolate the system back to essential components and validate the hose routing, although that is just a wild guess. Bypass the heater core if it seems like a good idea (if you have a leak, it does seem like that would be a smart play - at least until you can have the chance to work on the interior once it is out in Colorado with you. There isn't enough money in the world to make me want to open the interior to fix that on someone else's truck... I don't envy you that job!

The dash system test cycles through the positions of each gauge and light, but I'm not sure what exactly that would tell you, other than the gauges can sweep. If the programming is somehow wrong and the temp gauge is still being overly aggressive (there was an update from Chrysler to fix this - I would think everyone has had that by now) then that can be fixed with a tune or an update from the dealer... I like the tune option better b/c Keith won't make anything else worse!

As for the engine temps, reading from the thermostat housing should indicate ~190 on a "normal" engine with a functional thermostat. Broken, it will probably settle in the 150 degree range. The side of the block behind the alternator should give you similar numbers.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:14 am

The temp gauge TSB only applied to the 05 models and I had to deal with it. Under normal, not towing, operating conditions the temp gauge needle appears to read normal (e.g. nearly dead vertical) all the time as far as I know. However, even light towing will cause the temp needle to rapidly indicate a temp increase. By light towing I mean 2,500 lbs of boat with trailer and the AC on on a dead flat coastal north Florida road at moderate speed (ca. 65mph); turn AC off temp needle drops. Take home if you have ever done any towing without seeing what appears to be overheating or your's is an 06 then this TSB does not apply hence you have some other problem.

Go to http://www.greendieselengineering.com/j ... st/19.page for a bit more info on this plus a temp gauge needle position breakdown including temp in F at various needle positions and how that relates to actual overheating.

At minimum if the vehicle is being driven I'd recommend closing the heater core loop so you do not keep losing coolant from the heater core. FYI there is no "valve" in the heater core line so coolant constantly flows thru the heater core. Closing the loop is as simple as disconnecting the inflow line (one coming from the viscous heater) at a convenient spot; do the same for the outflow line; connect those 2 lines together which may require a couple of fittings with clamps and a bit of extra heater hose to keep a smooth loop with no kinks. I would not recommend installing a valve in the inflow line as I assume the coolant system functions best without the heater core line being blocked.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

Thanks geordi, I'll try to explain it a little better.
Before we left Colorado to run the Trans-American trail from Moab to Georgia it had started to over heat (never passed the 3/4 mark) climbing the mountain passes. If we continued riding down the road with the heat on and overdrive off it would bring the temp back to halfway point. I find the Hayden HD fan clutch free spins when my IR temp gun reads 220° at the housing. Bummer, it only has 6k on it. I swap it with a Napa unit (what I could get in a pinch) and I swapped radiator cap also. (Oem mopar cap)

The thing doesn't over heat at all running around town or the short trip we take down to Denver so we load up and head off to Moab, first real pass and it starts to creep up again. So we get of the highway, it immediately goes back to normal temp, we eat and continue. We find at 60 mph with overdrive off it maintains temp so we continue to Moab. We the picked up the trail and with the slow speeds did fine up until the last 100 miles of highway and it was the same routine. 60mph, overdrive off, defrost on. It had to be defrost so the auxiliary fan was in use.

Now in Georgia.. I order head gasket kit, water pump with brass impeller, tstat, and all timing components. I tear the engine apart, Bench test head for warpage, and reassemble with a handful of new rockers, New zerex hoat and all the new parts....drive it around, seems good. Trailer it back to Virginia to drop my lady and the crd off and then I continued on to Colorado. The CRD seemed ok until she had her family with her and got on the highway at which point it ran hot again. They take it to some local mechanic who says it's the thermostat, maybe water pump.... And he's never seen this engine before. I panic and tell them to stop everything and here I am. Lol

What I know-
-There's still a tiny leak in the heater core.
-Tap water was used at some point because I found heavy mineral scaling, made me suspect radiator efficiency.
-I didn't have time to have the head properly tested and im afraid of the possibility of a crack but we typically didn't have pressure in the system. The little coolant we lost was synonymous with the amount the heater core seemed to drip.
-I didn't have anything to test for exhaust gases in the coolant system.

I did all the work. I'm a long time tech currently doing Ferrari service and race prep. I would prefer to have it here so I could do they work myself, but that's not really an option. I then turned to the only group I would trust to refer me to someone else to wrench on our beloved Chewy, lol

I hope that all makes sense.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

That's interesting Papaindigo and something I wouldn't have thought of. That sure would be nice, lol.

It's not being driven really but she keeps an eye on the coolant level. It only lose a few ounces a month.

It is an 05' though. I'm going to read up on that some more.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

Oh, the heater core would be a treat to fix compared to working on a 1983 Mondial, lol.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:55 am

Comments for what they are worth.
1. "I find the Hayden HD fan clutch free spins when my IR temp gun reads 220° at the housing". What "housing"? If by that you mean the thermostat housing the air temp off the radiator when moving would be, per Hayden, about 30° lower or ca. 190° which is 20° above where the Hayden should start engaging. You say the Hayden "free spins" when the housing temp is 220° by that do you mean it spins with ZERO resistance or slight resistance? If ZERO resistance the Hayden clutch is shot, odd but not impossible. If slight resistance the Hayden fan clutch is not completely shot but it appears that the Hayden bi-metal spring that engages the clutch is not working right which amounts to the same thing. Only why I know to test either is to remove from the vehicle and apply heat.
2. What's the NAPA, likely a rebranded Hayden, fan doing at the same 220°?
3. Assuming that the 220° reading is at the thermostat housing where is your cluster temp gauge needle reading on the gauge? Consult the images at the GDE link I posted as this is a 2 part issue - a) if ca. 1 tick right of vertical that's about where it should be on a "normal" gauge vs. b) if about 1 tick right of 3/4 that's about where it would read if the gauge is not calibrated correctly per the TSB. Either way run the simple gauge calibration check that I mentioned. If b) applies AND the gauge calibration properly reads Cold, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 then I would conclude the gauge is calibrated ok but the ECU is interpreting the signal from the temp sending unit as if it's a gasser not a CRD and the TSB applies.

If you conclude the TSB needs to be addressed then I offer my experience. My local DCJ dealer is ok and the parts folks/mechanics are very good even with CRDs although I'm sure it helps I've known a couple of parts folks for decades. Unfortunately under the now merged dealership I don't really know the service reps at all although I used too, in fact one of the parts guys used to be a wonderful service rep. At best the service reps are annoying arrogant idiots. With that in mind some years back I took my 05 in, TSB in hand, with the classic TSB symptoms (see note above about light towing on flat road) and requested they recalibrate my gauge readings per the TSB. The service rep started a spiel about having to spend their time and my $$$ "diagnosing" the problem before checking the gauge calibration. At that point I bowed up and said essentially no way in h@ll was that going to happen what was going to happen is they would hook up their scan unit and run the TSB check and if a) I was wrong I'd pay for 15 minutes of shop time and not $0.00 more or b) if the gauge was off per the TSB they would recalibrate it and no $s would change hands. No $s changed hands so I guess I was right. Just a heads up and I'd also mention the recalibration involves the ECU, I'm pretty sure, so if you have an ECU tune that will probably be wiped and have to be reinstalled.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

The reading was at the thermostat housing. I would love to be able to do these tests. Problem is I'm in Colorado and the crd is with my lady in Virginia. She's not exactly the waist to explain this stuff too, lol.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:55 pm

I'm aware of that but my questions were based on the assumption that you could:
1. remember how "free" the Hayden fan spun at the temp you referenced and how the NAPA fan behaved at the same temp. Interesting but not critical information relative to the gauge TSB but useful regarding the "health" of the mechanical fan(s)
3. most importantly where your temperature gauge needle was located at 220° compared to the image at the GDE link that I provided. If it's near where the incorrectly calibrated gauge image shows 220° to be then I suspect the gauge is reporting as if the engine is gas not diesel and needs adjustment per the TSB in which case then all your lady in VA needs to be able to do is press the trip odometer and turn the key to confirm that the gauge Cold, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 to confirm that the gauge itself is not at issue. Whether or not she takes it to a dealer to do battle re. the TSB is another issue. If the answer is no then since neither of us is "there" I'm at a loss.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:15 am

Based on your parts list and my own experience with these engines... I'm going to be on the side that this is a gauge issue and little more. These engines are tough little monsters that like to run COLD, and are hard pressed to run hot even when on the highway and not towing. Mountains are certainly capable of loading up the engine, but I pulled 8000 lbs with mine in Savannah heat and never saw the gauge even drift higher than dead center.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

I'm going to walk her through these steps and see what we can find. That definitely makes perfect sense and would certainly be a pleasant surprise. Working on exotics tends to make me a bit over cautious.

Thanks guys, I'll let you know what the results are.

Verbal_CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm **Posts:** 46

So... After much money shelled out my trusty crd is back in boulder.

Today I was driving and the needle gradually climbed its way to the two red ticks before the H, jumped out with my IR gun and the thermostat housing was between 215 and 230°

Sounds to me like I have gauge issues...

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:09 am

DING DING DING we have a winnah! Time to get that bad boy recalibrated, I think! Good luck at the stealership, don't let them sell you a Fiat!

Need some CRD work done in NoVa/DMV area

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