HELP Servide Dept timing belt/ water pump job.

CBDUCKS · **Joined:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:13 pm **Posts:** 3

So I decide that my CRD has 90,000 and time to replace the timing belt voluntary vs involuntary plus more damage bills. I have made several improvements and parts replacements and have become closer every job to understanding this VM motor, or understanding why they only made 10,000, depending on the job.

So I ordered a timing belt kit from I.D. Parts along with water pump. Everything was done except for the water pump because they thought I wanted to save on labor charges :shock:

I stated that the time to replace the water pump was while all the front end parts were laying on the floor during the timing belt job. So we decided to leave it and they would swap out the water pump.

This is where it gets interesting.............

I receive a call asking if I knew how to swap out the water pump, at which time I said no, but there were youtube videos out there walking through the whole process. I'm thinking they did not watch them because I stopped back out to check on it and found a new development/ problem.

They took both cam sprockets off not knowing that they were not keyed and the tech said the spring loaded valves moved the cam mounts either direction and would be difficult to find the correct location for the timing. It looked as though there may have been dirt/oil residue that indicated where the key channel was in relationship to the back of the sprocket. I'm thinking that with calipers machine square you could transfer that mark to the front of the post and torque the bolts slightly to align with sprocket / rear housing marks made before the sprocket was removed.

Anyone experience this while swapping out water pump, more importantly does anyone have any suggestions to fix this predicament.
I understand the service departments frustration with the missing keyed cam sprockets, but I would like to have my car back and running before the snow fly's.

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

olypopper · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:15 am

You need to get them the special tool rental package from ID parts or Sasquatch parts. It includes the VM parts to lock the cam pulleys in places as well as the all important camshaft locking pins. The intake and exhaust camshafts must be locked in place as well as the crankshaft. The engine has to be "timed" prior to belt assembly or broken rockers will result.

Most certainly read the "Sir Sam's Noob Guide" at the top of the CRD page on this site. You can educate yourself and possibly get the techs working on your rig up to speed.

Don't be too hard on the guys wrenching on it because even my local Dodge/Jeep dealer was clueless as to how these engines are serviced and diagnosed. Honest mistakes happen........more often when a "different" type of engine is thrown into the mix.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:07 am

I'll agree "honest mistakes" happen but failure to read instructions does not constitute an honest mistake.

If I'm reading this correctly they removed both cam sprockets without a cam holding tool. I'll note that a cam holding tool is required for lots/many/most diesel engines with timing belts including VW so use of the tool should be no surprise. At that point they were only about 15 minutes away from being able to replace the water pump. Here is a possible "honest mistake" as the book calls for replacing the whole WP which is a bear due to bolt access issues. However, it's simple to pop the front 1/2 of the WP off (it's where the only moving parts are) and replace the front 1/2 with a new "O" ring.

So where are you:
1. if they removed the cams with no holding tool but cam pins in place they may have bent the pins and/or buggered the places in the valve cover where the pins thread in.
2. if the pins were not in who knows where the cam timing is now.
3. in any case best assume the cam/crank timing is totally off and needs to be reset. The is absolutely no way to due this based on dirt/oil marks that you or anyone "thinks" may indicate where the cams were before removal.
4. without going into details resetting timing means the crank/pistons need to be rotated until they are in the proper position relative to TDC which may involve popping injector #1 and locked in place with a flywheel pin (6mm or 1/4"long shank allen wrench). Then the cams need to be rotated until the cam pins can be inserted. Then the cams need to be installed and torqued WHILE using a cam holding tool. Then the belt can be installed, pins removed, and the engine manually rotated per instructions to confirm the timing is correct.

Not rocket science just picky. Suggest you contact geordi for more details or retiming.

CBDUCKS · **Joined:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:13 pm **Posts:** 3

So there is no way to reset the timing correctly without renting the tools (locking pins and cam locking tool )from ID or Sasquatch. The guys were going to make a part, but I think I will rent it and send it to them.

By rotating the crank shaft to align piston through injector #1 then you should be able to insert/ thread the cam locking pins? At what location? How would you reinstall the sprockets correctly for the teeth/ belt to line up?

Is there a set of procedures / manual that Chrysler service dept should have for this procedure? I'm guessing they do not have one because I would think they would have ordered the cam lock tool kit for the job. They did replace the timing belt originally before though so they must have some form of locking tool they used.

I wasn't being hard on the techs or service manager because they have been great and professional, as I also have a Ford F250 Powerstroke 6.7 that I trust them to work on. They just have never seen this motor before (along with thousands others) and I want to point them in the right direction to make it easier for them and my wallet.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:52 am

To be brief based on your paragraphs.
1. you can rent the tools, you can have the tools, you can buy the tools, you can make the tools but without correct tools the TB job cannot be done and retiming cannot be done.
2. no you have to find TDC on the proper engine stroke (intake vs exhaust) which involves removal of injector # 1 (requires new injector crush washer and "O" ring) and the go past that point. I DO NOT know the details but geordi does.
3. pardon me but duh a DCJ dealer should have the factory service manual which IIRC is accurate enough although some of the steps the FSM calls for and not needed (ex. replacing whole WP instead of just front 1/2)
4. whatever. If they, whomever they are, had never seen this engine before then they should have researched the how to. It's not all that complicated or different from other diesels with timing belts.

Contact geordi.

CBDUCKS · **Joined:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:13 pm **Posts:** 3

Regardless of the wealth of information found here to that particular engine, unless the techs are not going to listen to me and or do the research themselves, then I'm left with a dead crd. I just got off the phone with them and told them that I would rent the tools for them to use, but they would not have any of it...... They also said that they had no manual as to this VM motor, my response was to take some consideration to the research I've done along with the advice/ suggestions from those that know this motor good and bad.
In any case, I'm going to let them finish it, if I'm left with broken rockers after 5 minutes of it running then they can deal with them as well.

pjigar · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:35 pm

Or you can buy a knock off timing belt kit from eBay for lot cheaper!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JEEP-CHEOKEE-2001-2008-2-5-CRD-2-8-CRD-DIESEL-ENGINE-LOCKING-TIMING-PIN-TOOL-KIT-/311428716477?hash=item48829917bd&vxp=mtr

You can also get "fan removal tool" from Napa for torquing the cam gears back on.
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Fan-Clutch-Pulley-Holding-Tool/_/R-BK_7769139_0109806391

There is also a knock off "cam gear lock tool" you can buy on eBay. DO NOT torque the cam gears without either a strong "cam gear lock tool" or "fan removal tool" used for a leverage in opposite direction.

Engine timing has basically 4 things timed on this motor. Crank (as indicated by flywheel lock pin near the transmission-motor junction), intake cam shaft (as indicated by intake lock pin hole near right-front of the valve cover), exhaust cam shaft (as indicated by exhaust lock pin hole near left-front of the valve cover behind the thermostat), and the CP4 fuel pump (as indicated by a mark on the pulley that *normally* aligns with the mark on the rear timing belt cover). By the way, all these marks align only every third rotation of the crank. If either of these marks are off then severe engine damage or rocker damage will result. If I were you, I will make them watch the Sir Sam timing belt video AND BE THERE there when they align the timing marks. Also go through FSM and read how to setup timing after engine overhaul.

pjigar · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:41 pm

By the way, if they did not mark the pulley locations before taking the old belt off then they would have to find TDC on #1 cylinder manually as papaindigo indicated.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:43 pm

CBDUCKS wrote:

I wasn't being hard on the techs or service manager because they have been great and professional

Being professional is not taking on jobs that you don't have the skills, training, experience, instructions or tools to perform. Being professional is admitting when you are out of your depth and referring your customer to someone who knows what they are doing..

According to the book the timing belt replacement requires the sprockets to be loosened and then re-tightened with the new belt in place since they are not keyed. Your dealer should have known this and followed the correct procedure when he initially installed the new timing belt.

Like others have pointed out, help is out there, but if you insist on allowing these cowboys work on your vehicle then yes, the required tools (pins and locking tool) can all be easily fabricated from readily available materials, the FSM is hosted on Sir Sam's web page and re-timing has been covered on this forum on a number of occasions.

BTW, an incorrectly set tensioner may manifest itself a couple of months down the road at which point this mechanic will wash his hands of the problem and you'll be left with a $2k repair bill.

I suspect your heading for bigger troubles so good luck dealing with the carnage.

jws84_02 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:15 pm

The square indents on both camshafts will need to be facing each other. Intake will be at 9 o clock and exhaust will be at 3 o clock. The crank has a witness mark that will be at 3 o clock. Which will be 90 degrees pass tdc.

I WOULD NOT ALLOW THEM MONKEYS TO TOUCH IT ANYMORE

bugnout · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:55 pm

Get the pins in the Cranks to align them. notches should point at each other. No magic there.

Pull #1 Fuel Injector (be very careful not to drop anything down the injector hole), then use a long piece of wire down on top of #1 cylinder through the injector hole, (straightened coat hanger is perfect, Leave it long so no chance of dropping it into the cylinder) and turn the engine until the #1 piston pushes the coat hanger to maximum height. The crank timing mark should be pointing straight up. Good time to mark it with white paint or grease pencil. Turn the engine 90 degrees more until the crank mark points to the drivers side. Now pin the crank with the factory tool or use a hex wrench. The crank bolt holes (for the pulley) should be perfectly horizontal and perpendicular.

Finally align the fuel pump timing mark (little V groove in the edge of the gear with the mark that sits at about 8:00 on the inner timing cover. (this mark is often hidden under one of the bolts that hold the timing cover on)

Your engine is back in time, Put it all back together. You will need a new copper crush washer, O ring and a new bolt for the Fuel injector. Don't try to reuse the old ones or your likely to have a leak.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:09 pm

OK I DO NOT DO THIS OFTEN BUT I'M NOW OFFICIALLY SHOUTING AS I'M LEAVING THE COUNTRY FOR 3 WEEKS SHORTLY.

The only 2 people that I know who have retimed engines are geordi and Sir Sam and IIRC Sam is overseas right now so I repeat contact geordi.

Based on what this chat says this engine is completely out of time and the WP has not been replaced. Replacing the WP is easy (front 1/2 only) since the cams have to come back off to retime. No marking, which wasn't done, or matching cam notches will suffice to retime the engine. Mechanical retiming requires matching #1 piston to the appropriate position relative to TDC on the appropriate stroke; locking the crank in place; getting both cams in the appropriate position; locking them in place; installing and torquing both cam gears; installing TB; removing locking tools; rotating the engine mechanically to double check timing; readjusting the TB tensioner if need be.

Yes the CP3 has a "timing" mark so lining that up won't hurt although it's not critical to mechanical timing.

I would not trust 1) cam shaft notches; 2) crankshaft dimple; and/or 3) cam dimples to retime an engine. That said the crankshaft dimple should be at 3 o'clock but that tells you nothig about which stroke you are on and I suspect the cam notches are the same. The dimples on the cam gear teeth on mine and stoutdogs do line up but that's just where they were placed when timed at the factory (e.g. if you want them aligned - left at 3 and right 9 - then by all means make it so).

Here ends the rant.

PS - if as I read the chat a DCJ dealer did the work and they claim they do not have a manual on the engine they are liars.

PPS - bugnout is correct at least with respect to finding TDC and going the appropriate distance past. However, just finding TDC does not tell you if it's exhaust or intake TDC and, while I could be wrong, IIRC which stroke you are on matters.

bugnout · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:09 pm

papaindigo wrote:

PPS - bugnout is correct at least with respect to finding TDC and going the appropriate distance past. However, just finding TDC does not tell you if it's exhaust or intake TDC and, while I could be wrong, IIRC which stroke you are on matters.

Yup I had to think about that one long and hard when I was re-timing my engine, The engine hits TDC twice, once on intake, once on exhaust, but then realized that TDC is TDC regardless of the state of the cams. Getting the top end timed once the bottom is set, is the job of the cam pins, they make sure your valves are in the right state when the crank is TDC+90 and they are all connected together with a timing belt.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:03 pm

I'm here and willing to assist... Where are you located?

Let me point out three things for you to consider:

1: Your "mechanic" whether a dealer or not, is LEARNING ON YOUR VEHICLE and this is not something you want to allow them to do normally, twice as important to prevent on this particular engine.

2: Just because they manage to get it together well enough for you to drive it away, does NOT mean that they did ANYTHING correctly, or that it will last more than a few miles.

3: I am currently working on CRD #50+ that is finishing a FULL ENGINE REPLACEMENT because of a botched timing job that drove away for 200 miles and then stopped, and a CHRYSLER DEALERSHIP then managed to do something to the engine that completely destroyed 3 of the valves on the #4 cylinder. The total bill for this work will be quite high - it should be as much as $10,000 based on the costs of a new engine. As it is, this owner will be nearly $7k into this by the time I am done, but that cost does include all of the suggested durability modifications at the same time.

PLEASE - get your CRD away from these hacks, the cost of a tow truck is minor compared with the GUARANTEE of a minimum $2500 job WHEN (not if) the rockers are ruined because they took the engine apart without having the proper tools on hand.

I can re-time your engine properly without disassembling it, and can finish the timing job. You can also get your money back from these hacks, I can fill you in on how, but it works and I have done this against a Chrysler dealership myself. Whatever they demand you pay to release your vehicle (AND STOP WORK on it right now) is fine - pay it with a CREDIT CARD (debit card is OK, just make sure you have to sign, do NOT use a pin number) and get your truck back. Everything else is fixable.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:37 am

I am with geordi. unless you can get owner of dealership to sign a legal document guaranteeing any failure even possibly related to this repair will be covered by replacing with a new engine at their expense within at least 5,000 miles. the owner of course will not do this. even if they did and you have a problem you will not have your CRD for many months. and you do not have to loosen the cams at all to just replace the timing belt.

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:28 am

Can't see why you have to pull an injector when there is a mark on the crank nose. Once you have disturbed the timing, do not bring the crank near TDC. Turn it clockwise or anti-clockwise to reach the 90 deg. position after TDC without going through TDC. The reason crank is positioned at 90 deg past TDC to set the cam timing, is so you can turn the cams to time them without valves hitting piston. Always welcome discussion on statements I make.
John

Rixram · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:51 pm

To anyone else who is a new CRD owner reading this thread, the best, safest way to get your timing done is via other CRD owners.

Listen to what Geordi and everyone else said: Get That Jeep Away From The Stealership/Shop NOW.

If you do not, you will have a destroyed engine. I've been balls deep into these engines, too. Very likely a hell of a lot deeper than most dealerships. When you need something done, turn to this board first. When you have a question, turn to this board first. If you think you understand the issue, verify it through this board first.

If Geordi says he's available to help, I encourage you to take it. He has more experience on these engines than anyone.

I'm sure there are others here who will concur with that statement. We've all been there, and we are all personally familiar with this bastard-child of an engine. No manufacturer wants to support it, so it is up to us. There is a hell of a lot of knowledge & experience on this board. Turn here first. And when you are ready, help.

HELP Servide Dept timing belt/ water pump job.

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