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pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big problem
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Author:  toolmanmike [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big problem
Ok, I had a rear main seal leaking, so I pulled the engine to replace it and put a new "euro" torque converter in while I had it out. I did NOT crack open the engine, timing, oil pan, or any other part of the engine because it only has 65K mi. on it. I replaced everything back into the Jeep- hooked up the huge amount of sensors and the thing fired right up and idled just great! I drove it about a mi and as soon as I put my foot into it- the engine had a conniption! Sounded like the exhaust came loose and the engine started bucking. I pulled off the side of the road and shut it down because it had a really bad shudder and knocking sound. I could then not start the vehicle and it sounds like a loud knock when you turn it over.

I have towed it home and scanned the ODBII. Code 340 "camshaft sensor circuit error" I cleared the codes, unplugged the sensor as well as the crank sensor and replugged (nothing wrong there). still has a knock and won't start. I could start replacing sensors but everything worked when the engine came out. Im baffled by the knock. Any input?

toolman
Author:  olypopper [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Basics first. Any time you get a camshaft code on one of these engines, check mechanical timing.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
toolmanmike wrote:
it only has 65K mi. on it.

Yes - and it also has at least 9 years on a timing belt that has a 6 year life span

That may not be the issue - but 65K miles doesn't rule it out
Author:  dirtmover [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
The cam sensor will normally cause it to stall out and not restart in an otherwise benign manner. A sensor that is starting to fail will often allow it to restart after a cool down period. From your description it sounds like there is a lot more going on. Given the circumstances and knocking you experienced my first concern would be the timing belt has snapped resulting in the loss of the timing signal.
Author:  toolmanmike [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Timing belt is intact. I loosened the cover and checked that it was turning. The engine was running fine before I pulled it out of the car. It was running fine when I put it back in the car. Just quit 2 mi. down the road. I can't imagine I did anything to make it skip a cog on the belt. I will pull the front off again and check the mechanical timing marks to make sure. I don't think it is the sensor because it stopped all at once. Temperature has no affect.

Any other solutions? Also, can I check the cam sensor if I pull it off the vehicle?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
well - looking only at the work you did and then the problem -
are you sure the torque converter bolts were torqued with locktight?

although normally they take some time to work out - not just a couple of miles


on the sensor - most electrical sensors - measure resistance cold and then
- point a hairdryer at it and the resistance goes high or open.

common on the crankshaft position sensor
- no ones mentioned it on the camshaft sensor- but should behave the same
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
I'd be curious if other folks that have had rockers fail have had camshaft codes? I've dealt with a few engines with bad rockers, but never checked the codes. If you were putting heavy load on it :?: , I suspect you might have a bad rocker. Makes a knocking sound and I've seen them fail as early as 88k miles. If the oil changes were longer in duration on your engine, 65k is probably realistic.
I was putting heavy load (towing another CRD up a medium grade) on the 88k mile CRD when it collapsed.
Author:  geordi [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Bad noises = really bad things. You have a mechanical failure on your hands, and there are no "mechanical timing marks" to check. You have to use the pins. There is a very real possibility that the timing did jump, or that rockers failed. I have seen where the timing has stretched or jumped and when the rockers failed, it got pushed back to almost in time... Hiding what happened.

You need to take the top apart.
Author:  Hexus [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
I concur with Geordi, there's nothing visual you can check except to remove the intake and visually verify the rockers are ok.

The belt may not have "skipped a tooth" but the rockers up top may have failed regardless of what you did. It could just be coincidence, but you're also putting a lot of back pressure on all the components by renewing that converter, and it just chose the weakest point.
Author:  Mountainman [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
hmm, and usually with a broken rocker or two, it would still run, so I agree that the belt probably did skip.
On the bright side, it was due for a belt and rockers anyhow. Get a GDE tune and weeks elbow kit to ensure the new rockers will last the life of the engine. oh, don't forget ARP head studs either.
Author:  toolmanmike [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
OK, So Im pulling the cover off the top of the engine tonight. If I have broken rockers- will I have to take the head off to inspect the valves? I will do the timing belt regardless but I need to find the issue first. i just can't believe the coincidence of all the work I just did and THEN the engine breaking within 2 miles! Sucks.

Do I need to buy the install kit with the pins?
Author:  Mountainman [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
You'll need at least the two pins (which you can make) and a sprocket buster, but some people prefer the locking tool.
You won't have to pull the head unless a valve dropped, which is highly unlikely. As long as all the stems and keepers look good and intact, you're good. I'd highly recommend ARP's so you never have to get back in there and pull the head.

Don't forget a new water pump also. Full kit at ID parts...

That is lame, but now you know what these fickle engines need. When put together right, the fuel savings is impressive.
Author:  dirtmover [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Mountainman wrote:
You'll need at least the two pins (which you can make) and a sprocket buster, but some people prefer the locking tool.

The dimensions you need for the pins can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=98&t=72201

No need for the special locking tool. A sprocket buster type tool is real easy to make from some angle iron and 3 bolts. This counter hold tool is simple to use:
- use the pins to establish the correct timing but never try to loosen or tighten the cams with them in place
- always check and double check the timing afterwards using the pins

A few bucks in materials will get you what you need.
Author:  toolmanmike [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Great! Thanks for the inside info. I had not heard about making the pins. Will do. I ordered the kit from ID parts. IF the valve stems are in good visual shape you don't think I should inspect the valves themselves? What if they are dinged up?
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Thoughts for what it's worth:
1. it is possible however unlikely that you had a timing belt failure right after putting it back together. That said you might consider manually rotating the engine (see http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html for how to get in far enough to access the crank nut) just to check the torque converter bolts especially if you did not use loctite. IIRC there is a port with a rubber plug in it that's just above the starter that lets you look at the bolts as they rotate by.
2. while doing the above you can check the timing with the cam pins and a 6mm or 1/4" long shaft allen key (see 05 FSM for how) for the flywheel pin (alternatively with the cam pins in the crank bolts should be exactly at 12/3/6/9 with the notch at 3)
3. you cam sensor position error does suggest a timing issue when combined with knocking.
4. rockers are a design failure point if out of time. Rockers break before valves/pistons do bad things. If you pull the top off AND all the valve stems are at the same height after removal of rockers you should not need to pull head to check valves.
Author:  toolmanmike [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Will do! By the way, Why does the manual say NOT to rotate the crank counter clockwise? What could that hurt?
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
If the timing belt tensioner is loose or bad, rotating ccw could create slack in the belt that might cause the belt to jump a few teeth.
Author:  Hexus [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
toolmanmike wrote:
Will do! By the way, Why does the manual say NOT to rotate the crank counter clockwise? What could that hurt?


Why does your hair dryer say not to use it in the bath tub? Because some fool did it and got hurt or destroyed something.

If you install the correct locking pin, and install it correctly while you are doing your timing belt, you won't be able to rotate the crank at all anyways.
Author:  lacabrera [ Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
My guess would be you damaged the cam shaft sensor or connector. Dropping the transmission causing the motor to tip down at the back damaging the sensor.
Author:  toolmanmike [ Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big pro
Well, Here is the update. The engine had a noticeable metallic clunk sound when you crank it over. I was pretty sure the timing belt skipped a tooth or something and the rockers were broken. I ordered a new timing belt kit (in the mail) and started pulling it apart. Turns out the mechanical timing is right on! No problems there the belt looks just fine. While the engine was 1/2 torn apart, I pulled the injectors just to make sure all 4 pistons were going up and down and yes, they are. By the way, the mechanical "clunk" is not noticeable now. Im going to put it all back together (with the new belt kit installed) and see what is up. I HATE trouble shooting! If I have to pull this engine back apart after I get it together, I will push it off a cliff.

Question: Should I take the top off the engine and inspect the rockers? There is a lot to take off yet to get to the rockers. Any thoughts?
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