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CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83756		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've posted, mainly due to no problems with the CRD/ That has now changed. The head gasket problem at just over 150k miles.

Lurked as much info as I could before pulling the head, having a machine shop resurface the valves and seat and supposedly, check for cracks.

Got it all back together and started right up......blowing white smoke. Bubbles in the coolant, coolant in the oil.

Pulled the head, gasket didn't appear bad, gaskets were both 1-hole so no clue why the smoke and tears. Then I noticed that the #2 cylinder liner had so unusual markings. If I can get the photos to load, here's my question..

If the head isn't cracked (reverifying with another machine shop), is the damage or wear on this liner due to a cracked liner or due to the coolant that was originally leaking into the combustion chamber.

here are the URL's to the photos
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dw17B7bPx-fycw2yTPbTJdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ebfazFRN8uiY6vZb0PvoT9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Image
Author:  Hexus [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
It's my understanding (limited as it may be) that if you have a 1 hole gasket, and you have the head machined, you then use a 2 hole gasket. Etc., so on, so forth.

I would make that your first point of reference.
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
That liner doesnt look cracked. It looks scuffed but not cracked.
If it was cracked there would be water in the cylinder on top of the piston.
Was there any water in the cylinders when you pulled the head?

When I discovered my cracked head three of the cylinders had water in them.
Cracks were found around the exhaust valve seats.
Author:  rankom [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
i say ,(pressure test cylinder head )
Author:  Mike92104 [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
The sleeve looks like it has some scoring. What did you use to clean the surface of the block? It might just be the lighting in the pictures, but it looks pretty scuffed up to me.
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
flash7210 wrote:
That liner doesnt look cracked. It looks scuffed but not cracked.
If it was cracked there would be water in the cylinder on top of the piston.
Was there any water in the cylinders when you pulled the head?

When I discovered my cracked head three of the cylinders had water in them.
Cracks were found around the exhaust valve seats.


Just remnants of what was left in the head water jackets as far as I could tell. Machine shop says they will have the water pressure test done today........

Thanks for the information of where the leaks were found.

Gary
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Mike92104 wrote:
The sleeve looks like it has some scoring. What did you use to clean the surface of the block? It might just be the lighting in the pictures, but it looks pretty scuffed up to me.


Used a 3M polishing pad made specifically for cleaning engine mating surfaces. Was overly careful. Stuffed clean rags into the recessed cylinders, vacuumed then compressed air. There's always a chance i missed some though!

Thanks,

Gary
Author:  Hexus [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Alright, this will be my last attempt to get you to listen.

Please go read this thread:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83126&hilit=+HEAD+%2C+GASKET+%2C+HOLE+
Author:  Mountainman [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
I don't use anything but the tough foam pads (SOS?) not metal ones, and I use my hand only. This is after a scrape the block clean with a razor blade, being extremely careful not to scratch or touch the top of the sleeves. Then SOS pad with acetone, or brake cleaner. If you get the top of the sleeves clean, you'll hopefully see that there are actually about 3 tiny rings that go around the crest of the sleeve. If these rings or ridges are intact (and they are like .030 tiny), and there aren't any worn areas (dial indicator is nice for checking this) then you should be good with some ARP's. I just redid one that was new and they used the spray copper stuff with stock bolts... It failed miserably under after less than 10k. I think it's a crazy amount of work to do without ARP's for insurance :2cents:
Author:  geordi [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
I recently rebuilt an engine that had been torn down to the pistons for verification and installation - I put it back together using copper kote and ARP studs with a fresh gasket. I have no worries about that engine, it is running perfectly now and the owner is happy as a clam.

Milling the head only "lowers" the valves slightly closer to the piston crowns, it should have NOTHING to do with the compression or the size of the head gasket b/c the gasket is sized to match the liner protrusion from the deck of the block. If you did not measure the liner protrusion, then you cannot know that the gasket is correct.
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Well I got the bad news a little while ago, crack between #2 and #3 cylinder on the head. And it being a holiday weekend it looks like it won't be until next week before I can even get another head.

I made sure the machine shop knew not to take more than 4 thousandths, they took just shy of 2 and stamped the head, used a one hole gasket just like what came off the engine, new gaskets all around.
I tried to do this right, ARP studs, new rocker/lifters, EGR delete and I fall prey to somebody else not doing their job correctly....sigh. A simple pressure test done correctly would have saved me a ton of work.

Now to locate a head I can afford!

Thanks for all of the input.

Happy New Year,

Gary
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Exact same thing happened to me.
Sent the head to the machine shop to have cleaned and checked for cracks and flatness.
They did a great job cleaning it but didnt find any cracks.
I put that head back on and had the exact same symptoms.
So I did my own pressure test and found the cracks.

I got a low mileage used head from VMspecialist in England.
Everything shipped to me for under $600.
Author:  Mike92104 [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
geordi wrote:
b/c the gasket is sized to match the liner protrusion from the deck of the block. If you did not measure the liner protrusion, then you cannot know that the gasket is correct.


Why do you insist on continuing to disseminate incorrect information? Head gasket thickness is determined by measuring the piston protrusion, and not the cylinder liners.
Author:  PhoenixCRD [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
flash7210 wrote:
Exact same thing happened to me.
Sent the head to the machine shop to have cleaned and checked for cracks and flatness.
They did a great job cleaning it but didnt find any cracks.
I put that head back on and had the exact same symptoms.
So I did my own pressure test and found the cracks.

I got a low mileage used head from VMspecialist in England.
Everything shipped to me for under $600.


Thanks for the info. iDParts is out of stock until the 11th and expensive.

How long did it take to get?
What kind of guarantee did they give you?

Gary
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
Mike92104 wrote:
geordi wrote:
b/c the gasket is sized to match the liner protrusion from the deck of the block. If you did not measure the liner protrusion, then you cannot know that the gasket is correct.


Why do you insist on continuing to disseminate incorrect information? Head gasket thickness is determined by measuring the piston protrusion, and not the cylinder liners.


In this case, its a moot point.
Only if pistons and liners have been removed do the measuments and gasket thickness matter.
Otherwise, just replace with what was previously installed.
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
PhoenixCRD wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Exact same thing happened to me.
Sent the head to the machine shop to have cleaned and checked for cracks and flatness.
They did a great job cleaning it but didnt find any cracks.
I put that head back on and had the exact same symptoms.
So I did my own pressure test and found the cracks.

I got a low mileage used head from VMspecialist in England.
Everything shipped to me for under $600.


Thanks for the info. iDParts is out of stock until the 11th and expensive.

How long did it take to get?
What kind of guarantee did they give you?

Gary


They didnt offer me any kind of warranty. And I wasnt expecting any for the price.
They told me the head was disassembled, cleaned, inspected, and pressure tested.
That was good enough for me.

Took about 2.5 weeks to get it. Kinda difficult communicating with someone on the other side of the atlantic. But in the end I got what I needed and my engine has been running great ever since.
Author:  Mountainman [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
the big problem I see with their heads are that there is no way to know how Many miles they have, and they show up without being milled smooth to factory specs, and what it they aren't perfectly flat? I bought a few, but had a machine shop mill them and retest everything, and install new stem seals which I had to source. still less than a new one, but takes a month, and the miles are still unknown.
Author:  lars0247 [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Gasket and Cylinder Liner ?
The head that the VM specialist sold me was direct from a VM test engine. I don't know if he has anymore of these, but I received one from him in early September, and it has worked great along with the ARP studs I installed. The only thing about these test heads is they have been sitting for some time, and there was some minor corrosion on the aluminum, albeit in a non-sealing area, and the valves needed to be lapped into the seats. This might have been due to minor corrosion too.

My Jeeps has run great since.

I paid about $650 including next day shipping via DHL.
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