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Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84551		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Tue May 03, 2016 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
To Start off, I've been having a persitent limp mode issue with no codes thrown for awhile. It has been manageable since it doesn't occur everyday but it is a bit annoying. I doesn't seem to be a fuel issue as it doesn't run rough, I have eliminated the quick disconnect, have a lift pump, and a updated fuel head that the primer is always hard. It is a little odd though that it happens almost at the same spot/spots on my commute when it does occur. I can confirm if I take it on a rocky rough road(forest road) I can guarantee the limp mode being activated and reactivated until I get back on pavement. I mention this as this is something i have not been able to figure out since no codes are thrown and I really don't know why it would occur on the same spot on the road or possibly at a certain cycle in engine.

With the above in mind, Recently on my commute the rig seemed to be off a bit(vibration)and went into limp a lot. I garaged it for two weeks and decided to start it up to listen to it and I thought I definitly could hear a rocker ping. So this weekend(another week) I had some time, started it up and could not hear the ping. I moved forward on working towards replacing the rockers and got to the timing belt and my tensioner had backed off quite a bit, I have not gone any further as I didn't have enough time but I also wanted some advice before proceeding.

So a Couple Questions on this current problem
Since the Belt doesn't seem to be damaged or even have enough slack with the tensioner that far backed off to have skipped a tooth, should this even be a concern other then possible tensioner failure? Belt and pulley currently has 25k miles on it.

If the belt is not fully tensioned would it be safe to assume that it could lead to the timing during operation having possible slop even without the belt skipping a tooth?
Could this answer the problem of why I'd go into limp mode in such a consistent spot on my daily commute or am I incorrect in this thinking?

Could this of caused possble rocker damage even without skipping a tooth?

If I check the timing and if everything is still timed should I close her back up and see if it solves the current roughness and possible the limp mode or DO you think I'm on the righ track on checking the rockers for damage?


It would save me some money and alot of time not having to go do the rockers. When I say rockers, that means I'm going to spend $ on the rockers/ARP Studs/send the injectors out for testing since they are out during this time. The Liberty has 175,000 miles on the OD and I think I already know the answer to this question but it never hurts to hear advice from more experienced people.
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue May 03, 2016 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Two short bits sums up my thoughts on your problems.

1. I had one CRD behave exactly like that on hills, and it was a rocker, or maybe two. I drove it for another 1000 miles (out of necessity, I was moving) and then more rockers collapsed. I ended up having to do the cams and HG also because of this. If the HG is solid, save yourself a lot of time and $$, and don't run it. You likely already have one roughened cam lobe.
If you have that weird rocker ping with the drivers side cac hose off, I wouldn't even worry about the timing. I doubt the timing has anything to do with it. I've seen them fail at 88k miles, and someone on Lost reported them going in the 60's, and I see them wasted all of the time in the 100-150 range, so you have done well getting them to 170k. GDE tune is the key to making them last I believe.

2. I wouldn't waste your $$ on the injectors as I've seen them run great well beyond that mileage, although I do think secondary filtration is key to making them last 300k+ miles. Maybe get them checked if your mpg's were mysteriously poor before the rockers went? hmm, how much do the injectors cost to get calibrated anyhow?
Author:  twulf [ Thu May 05, 2016 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
I had a car that would start to die for a few seconds if I took a turn too fast. Ended up being the crankshaft position sensor started acting up. every time I went around that same corner near my house.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Thu May 05, 2016 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Could be a loose connection or bad wire that only sees movement when you drive over rough terrain? :idea: Check all electrical connections and wiring for any possibility of problems...
Have you checked with a scanner? Even though it does not set a DTC light, the ECM may still be storing a soft code that will help you identify the problem when it goes into limp mode... If you have not ever changed the crank sensor, I would do so as they are notorious for causing intermittent problems... :wink:
Good luck!!!
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Tue May 10, 2016 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Alright got the valve cover off, 1 of the lifters was unclipped on the exhaust side but I think I knocked it off while taking the cover off. After inspecting all the rockers none are seized, none look like they have any wear on the rockers themselves just the rollers. There is a bit of play on a couple lifters though when you compress them. The 1 that was unclipped seemed to have very little resistence when clipped and unclipped by hand. Camshafts look smooth although the seal needs to be replaced on the intake side.

The jeep has 170,000 miles on it with the timing and GDE Tune being completed at 150,000 miles and and never before as I know. I will be replaceing the rockers due to the mileage on them. Is it worth spending the $ on putting ARPs in since I do not have an coolant loss this far/Head Gasket with the engine with OEM Bolts?

Overall seems to me with 170000 miles on the engine I was expecting a lot worse but I'm also afraid at this point I have not found the culprit of the Limp mode I have been having.

Mountainman,
I have found out it is only 25 per injector to test so I will be going ahead with testing the injectors just to eliminate them as a culprit. I'm alittle afraid that since everything seems to be in a decent condition that once put back together I may still have the limp mode problem :? I'm thinking about taking the CP3 out and having that tested as well, I have read thread with a similair problem on LostJeeps and it pertained to the CP3. At this point it might not hurt to eliminate it from the cause. I was making roughly 22-24mpg during the winter here in oregon, Franken lift and 31.5 tires, Summer before making about 26-28mpgs.

Twulf/WWDiesel
I might just go ahead and replace the CPS Sensor to eliminate the possiblilty. I'm currently going thru the wiring and not seeing any issues or cracks, same for all vaccum lines. I have a code reader and nothing had come up.
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue May 10, 2016 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
22-24 mpg winter with a lift sounds about right. You'll lose a few mpg's just from winter blend and or the denser air. The faster you drive the more the cold dense air is going to affect mileage.
-Actually with 31.5" tires your mileage really sounds good for winter. But, if you're driving flat land at 55-65 with really gentle acceleration, then I'd expect a little more. Mixed city? rolling hills? AT tires or MT tires, or LRR?

If you compare the new bearings to your old ones, and still think they have only a little bit of play, I would buy them.

Definitely worth the ARP's. I use them on every engine I assemble, even though I don't get it back when I sell it. At least I know that the customer won't get burnt.

That's not bad at all on the injector testing, I should have tested mine when they were out, because one of them causes a miss when the engine is cold. Now I'll just be stuck with swapping one for one, and then there's the whole position programming each time :banghead:
Author:  geordi [ Wed May 11, 2016 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
According to Keith, the programming is not as important as we think.

I'd definitely do the ARP studs though, it is not a question of IF there will be a gasket leak, it is simply a matter of WHEN. Doing the studs now, makes up for that completely. Nick, I can't figure why you wouldn't get the money back on the studs, it is a major upgrade that anyone who knows about these things should be happy to find out they are already in there. Get that money for your hard work!
Author:  Mountainman [ Thu May 12, 2016 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
geordi wrote:
According to Keith, the programming is not as important as we think.

I'd definitely do the ARP studs though, it is not a question of IF there will be a gasket leak, it is simply a matter of WHEN. Doing the studs now, makes up for that completely. Nick, I can't figure why you wouldn't get the money back on the studs, it is a major upgrade that anyone who knows about these things should be happy to find out they are already in there. Get that money for your hard work!


Well, they do seem to sell fast if they have the ARP's, so at least there's that. I need to go order another pile of ARP's right now actually, ouch$$$
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Thu May 12, 2016 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
I'm going to order the ARPs and Rockers tomorrow and send the injectors off for testing. I'm not going to move forward on the taking the CP3 out right now and just cross my fingers on it.

Question: Since I'm going to just replace the Head Bolts and not remove the head and replace the gasket, am I just removing 1 bolt at a time, in the correct order per the FSM? I don't want to assume that this is correct as it may be different or reverse since the head is already bolted down and I'm not starting at scratch tightening the head down. This I need to know for sure before I move forward so I do not create a possible head gasket leak.

Thank you for all the replies provided, this site/Community is awesome. :D
Author:  geordi [ Thu May 12, 2016 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
You don't need to follow any particular pattern, the rest of the bolts aren't moving when you pop just the one. I actually do them in groups when I do this, but that is because I've done so many now. The point is to not disturb the coating that is on the factory head gasket installation, which would happen if the gasket or head was shifted.

Your procedure then is this, and some will make more sense when you have it in front of you: Unwrap the boxes of studs, use the newsprint to make a clean work area. Take the sticker out of the instructions, throw away the directions. Unwrap everything onto the newsprint. Put a healthy amount of ARP lube onto the narrow threads of each stud (except for two - they are extra in this application) and on the flat faces of the washer where it meets the nut and will meet the head. Doing this to the washers as you pre-assemble everything will keep the lube mess to a minimum. Wear gloves, or you will have silver fingers for days.

Pre-assemble the nut onto the stud so the top is flush with the top of the stud, then slide the washer on from the other end. The wide threads GET NO LUBE. DO NOT LUBE THE WIDE THREADS. Sorry for shouting, but people miss this one all the time. Once all 18 studs are preassembled, now you are ready to remove a bolt and start with the process. PLEASE follow the directions in the research request sticky thread, and record your data! The number of factory-original engines is dwindling, so your data is helpful for the group.

Remove the bolt, thread the assembled stud into the head hand-tight with a 5mm hex driver, and now you are ready to go right to the final torque in one step. For the center bolts, numbered 1-10, final torque is 130lb-ft. For the outer rows, bolts 11-18, torque is 120 lb-ft.

Have fun doing it!
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Mon May 16, 2016 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
geordi wrote:
You don't need to follow any particular pattern, the rest of the bolts aren't moving when you pop just the one. I actually do them in groups when I do this, but that is because I've done so many now. The point is to not disturb the coating that is on the factory head gasket installation, which would happen if the gasket or head was shifted.

Your procedure then is this, and some will make more sense when you have it in front of you: Unwrap the boxes of studs, use the newsprint to make a clean work area. Take the sticker out of the instructions, throw away the directions. Unwrap everything onto the newsprint. Put a healthy amount of ARP lube onto the narrow threads of each stud (except for two - they are extra in this application) and on the flat faces of the washer where it meets the nut and will meet the head. Doing this to the washers as you pre-assemble everything will keep the lube mess to a minimum. Wear gloves, or you will have silver fingers for days.

Pre-assemble the nut onto the stud so the top is flush with the top of the stud, then slide the washer on from the other end. The wide threads GET NO LUBE. DO NOT LUBE THE WIDE THREADS. Sorry for shouting, but people miss this one all the time. Once all 18 studs are preassembled, now you are ready to remove a bolt and start with the process. PLEASE follow the directions in the research request sticky thread, and record your data! The number of factory-original engines is dwindling, so your data is helpful for the group.

Remove the bolt, thread the assembled stud into the head hand-tight with a 5mm hex driver, and now you are ready to go right to the final torque in one step. For the center bolts, numbered 1-10, final torque is 130lb-ft. For the outer rows, bolts 11-18, torque is 120 lb-ft.

Have fun doing it!


Geordi,
Thanks for the reply and I will follow your insturctions and the sticky to get the needed info. I ordered all the parts on Friday afternoon from ID Parts and I will receive them all tomorrow right on time. Quick question though, the FSM says to use a angle torque gauge on the head bolts(not very precise when a "hand tighten bolt" then the first and second angle gauge could mean a varied end torque value), I'm assuming this is discussed in the sticky you refered to and the torque values above are then to be found to be correct?
Author:  geordi [ Mon May 16, 2016 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Factory service manual is written with the idea of using the factory torque-to-yield bolts. You aren't. You do not need an angle gauge, just the directions above are how I do the process on every one that I work on. ARP studs are tightened to a known torque value and they are done. No messing around.
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Mon May 16, 2016 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Awesome sounds a lot more precise, Thanks again. I hope to have it all back up and running by the weekend.
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Tue May 17, 2016 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
I've been reading a lot of threads and It just caught my attention that it is mentioned once you remove the timing belt you don't want to re-tension/reuse the belt. Is this correct, I only have about 25,000 on mine and was not planning on replacing yet? I know it would give me that much more time to before I have to replace but I plan on replacing all the timing components at that next 100,000 mark.
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue May 17, 2016 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
At that mileage, I would just pick up one of the new belts and run it 100k, you can find them online for less than 200 I think. From what I've seen, I wouldn't be afraid to run the water pump and idlers for 125k miles, but I wouldn't push them any further. Please let us know what's the cheapest you find if you do. I need to order a single belt myself.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue May 17, 2016 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Did a quick Google search, looks like Rockauto has the best price right now, $70.99 for the Gates T336 timing belt.... :wink:
Author:  geordi [ Tue May 17, 2016 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Rock isn't bad, but when IDparts supports us and our orphan vehicle so well... Shouldn't we return the favor for a few bucks difference?
Author:  Tuf-Mud [ Tue May 17, 2016 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
ok, I will order the timing belt, I've ordered everything from ID parts so far. They really are great with the support needed on our rigs.
should i get a new tensioner at the same point or should that be good for 125000.
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue May 17, 2016 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
Tuf-Mud wrote:
ok, I will order the timing belt, I've ordered everything from ID parts so far. They really are great with the support needed on our rigs.
should i get a new tensioner at the same point or should that be good for 125000.


I'd use the old one, I've seen several of them make 150-200k, but they had loose bearings...
Author:  geordi [ Tue May 17, 2016 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice on 05 Liberty Timing & Rockers
I haven't seen any of the Japanese NTN bearings get loose, and when I rebuild my own CRD I am planning to use one of those unless I find I already have a good new one in my parts bucket.

You can tell which is which b/c it will say "NTN Japan" on the blue rubber seal on the bearing. The newer china bearings just say Litens in a very boring impact font.
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