Any deviation in correct cams to piston position timing would affect the engine power negatively. They all MUST be timed perfectly for everything to function and perform properly...
Timing is a critical a element of engine performance!!!
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| Timing Belt Question http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85252 |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Timing Belt Question |
I recently had the timing belt changed on my 05 Liberty CRD at 104k miles. (We only use it on trips so not a daily driver.) Anyway, ever since then it seems to have just a touch of lag upon takeoff as well as it seems to turn over once or twice more than usual to crank and fire up. Both of these happen most when cold, or at least that's when I notice it most. Otherwise, it runs as usual. Question is, if the timing belt was off by a tooth with this engine, would you know it? Wouldn't it be obvious? Thanks for any opinions. Jason |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Any deviation in correct cams to piston position timing would affect the engine power negatively. They all MUST be timed perfectly for everything to function and perform properly... Timing is a critical a element of engine performance!!!
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| Author: | 69Hcode [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Where do you live? Maybe someone close has the timing pins. Wouldn't be hard to check. If the water pump was done the cam pulleys were removed and the teeth don't really matter. The pins are used to line up the cams with the crank. The pulleys are not splined or keyed to the cams. They can spin when they are loose. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
I live in the Christiansburg, Va area. I couldn't find anyone locally that had ever heard of a CRD but found someone who worked on Mercedes diesels and went with them. I ordered the kit from IDParts with OEM (upgraded) everything and even printed the guide available on this site. In the end, I don't think they even looked through the guide because they called me with the water pump housing issue (hole in the new) and we had to manufacture a part to seal it. They made the comment "the timing is marked and can't be screwed up" and that sounded a bit of an alarm also. In the end, I took it to a shop simply because it was too much to do in my driveway. I'm starting to this it was a big mistake. Is there a guide I can use with instructions for checking the timing? Thanks. |
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| Author: | jws84_02 [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Ugh... They were incorrect in regards of you can't screw up the timing. You definitely can. Search on here for a thread "The correct way to change timing belt" Good luck. I think Geordi is currently somewhat in that area fixing jeeps maybe shoot him a pm and he can assist. |
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| Author: | GraemeT [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Hi I do not know of a guide offhand but if you can grab a set of the locking pins from somewhere (or built up a set as described elsewhere on LJ) then you can set the timing statically by referring to the Valve Timing section (section 9-50 or page 95 on the CRD pdf found here) If you get the pins in correctly then your timing is OK and the problem is elsewhere, if you cannot locate the pins correctly then the timing is out - you'd need to then correctly set the static timing as describe. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Found a nice guide here that shows where the pins go. Looking up the pins individually looks expensive but can anyone confirm that http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEILSEN-CHRYSLER-JEEP-LDV-2-5-2-8-CRD-DIESEL-ENGINE-TIMING-SETTING-TOOL-KIT-/191856099034?hash=item2cab83beda:g:2FIAAOSwnDZT1N0s is the correct CRD kit? I can get it to the door for less that $50. I'll also contact geordi for his location and see where that goes. Thanks. |
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| Author: | 69Hcode [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
I used the cheap ones off of ebay. The are not very strong but remember they are for aligning the cams. Not holding them while torqueing them down. It will be pretty easy to check in your driveway. You'll need someone to bar the engine over while you put the pin in the flywheel. Remember it could be 180 out when the flywheel pin in. |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Cam pin dimensions are at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=72201 . It's easy enough to make your own see http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html . The flywheel pin probably is not needed just to check timing but if desired you can use a long shaft allen wrench 6mm or 1/4" per 05 FSM; be sure to tap around the hole in the flywheel to make sure you are inserting the wrench into a small hole not a large cut out. The hard part is going to be spinning the engine to the point where you can insert the pins. In theory it might??? be possible to do this by "bumping" the starter otherwise you are likely going to have to pull the serp belt, fan, and fan shroud to get access to the 21mm "nut " on the front of the crankshaft hub so you can use a socket on the "nut" to manually rotate the engine CLOCKWISE only when viewed from the front to get things to line up. An added check on positioning is that the 4 bolts on the outside of the hub should align exactly at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock and there should be a small dimple, see Figure 166 (05 or 06 FSM not sure which), adjacent to the bolt hole in the 3 o'clock position. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
I've ordered the pin kit from ebay and figure it won't take much to check it. Either they go in or they don't. Thanks for all the tips. I'll report back once I've given it a go. Thanks. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
The pin kit came in so I gave it a go. Now I've got a couple of questions. First, the pin listed as the exhaust side was burred at the threads, but seeing as how I'm only checking timing and the intake side is just a touch longer, I used it to check both sides. In order for the pin to seat on both sides, the cam timing marks are exactly 1 tooth off. Exhaust mark is higher than the intake mark. But, seeing as how the cams line up, no real worries? The fuel pump marks seem lined up with it's mark also. My question is about the crank pin. Just how far should it go in? The part I have has threads that start 1.75" from the end. After it threads about 1/8" it stops (gets tight) and I don't want to wrench it at all. There's about 5/8" of shaft after the threads before the hex head and I'm wondering is it supposed to thread through the threaded hole in the block? I hope that makes sense. I don't have a photobucket (or similar) account but can acquire one for pics if needed. Thanks. |
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| Author: | mass-hole [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
The gates pin should go about half way in. If you look at pictures of the miller pin, the threads that are supposed to screw into the hole are about half way along the length and that should give you an idea of how far in it should go. If you wiggle it up and down you should feel it stop as it hits the edges of the inner hole. I rented the gates tool and pin kit and never found that it was super precise in holding the cams. There was still some rotational play in both cams when the pins with threaded in. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
I put some pics on a pdf showing what I'm seeing. It's https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltpscfpj2k5c7vo/Jeep%20Timing.pdf?dl=0. I can't get the crank pin to find a hole anywhere and suspect maybe it's out of line? I bumped the crank both directions constantly reset the pin and the depth never changed. I switched to a 1/4" allen wrench and realigned the cam pins and the wrench dropped right into a hole. Pics are on the pdf. At this point, I don't think the timing is off. The cams, fuel pump and crank seem to be in time but I suspect the timing belt tensioner wasn't put in correct and need some opinions. Pics on the same pdf linked above. It's just strange that after the timing belt change the cold start and take off seems odd. Once it warms up it seems pretty close to normal. Where to go from here..... |
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| Author: | flash7210 [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Thde crank pin in that cheap set doesnt work. Toss it in the trash. Timing isnt set/checked by any marks on the sprockets. Those marks are useless. There is a mark on the crankshaft sproket. It should be exactly at the 3 o clock position. The cam pins should fit perfectly in place. If they do not, it is not in time. The tensioner looks ok. Wouldnt hurt to set it a bit tighter. |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Took your advice and went outside to take a closer look. With the cam pins still in and fuel pump lined up, I lined the camera with the front of the Jeep and took a pic of the crank sprocket. Didn't notice that notch before. It appears to be a tooth off. I uploaded the pic with a grid overlaid. Camera was level with the Jeep. Check it out and let me know if you agree https://www.dropbox.com/s/dj8vn9my06b43bk/Screenshot%20from%202016-09-27%2018%3A56%3A20.jpeg?dl=0 It appears that I need to drop the belt and turn the crank counterclockwise one click. Opinions? And thanks so much for all the help. The last timing belt I did was on a '96 Ranger and it was a world of difference. |
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| Author: | flash7210 [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Yes, the crank does seem off by 1 or 2 teeth. How the heck did you get the camera down there for the picture? |
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| Author: | minuteman [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
Lol, I was able to get the fan and shroud out without removing the radiator or intercooler. So I lined up the phone with the radiator as a guide and switched camera sides on a Samsung Galaxy. Click. The sun is setting now but I'll get the crank turned back a tooth in a day or so and report back. I was reading one CRD "How To" on timing belts and the guy made mention of this same issue when putting the belt under tension. At least now I know I wasn't crazy. Jason |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
It's not timed right but it's not off by much: 1. "cam alignment marks" don't mean anything unless they were actually set to line up when the engine was last correctly timed. There is no key on the cam gears so position of the cam gears is determined by where they are tightened down and has nothing directly to do with whether or not the camshafts are correctly timed to the crank. 2. your pic of the crank shows crank is clearly off if that's where it sits with the camshaft pins in. The bolt holes must be at 12/3/6/9 and the divot at 3 o'clock. As noted looks like it's 1-2 teeth off 3. the 1/4" allen key trick works fine but your pic also shows the crank/flywheel is off. The allen key shaft must be dead horizontal and the "handle" dead vertical. In the pic they are clearly tilted up and left; see horizontal engine casting flange just below allen key shaft. See pics in 05 FSM of how the key should sit. 4. the timing belt tensioner is not fully "tensioned" but that won't impact timing unless it's so loose as to allow the TB to jump. It's not that loose. I suspect you are not far enough off to damage rockers but you are far enough off to impact performance. That said I'd ask geordi's opinion on possible rocker damage before retiming without opening rocker cover. |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
minuteman wrote: Lol, I was able to get the fan and shroud out without removing the radiator or intercooler. So I lined up the phone with the radiator as a guide and switched camera sides on a Samsung Galaxy. Click. The sun is setting now but I'll get the crank turned back a tooth in a day or so and report back. I was reading one CRD "How To" on timing belts and the guy made mention of this same issue when putting the belt under tension. At least now I know I wasn't crazy. Jason Ya it looks like someone didn't get the correct tooth count between the IP and crank sprocket. |
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| Author: | mass-hole [ Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Timing Belt Question |
I wanna know why they wouldnt key the cam gears to the slots in the cam shafts. Seems like a silly oversight. that would make it so all you had to do was align the gears with your marks you made prior to disassembly instead of having to worry about the cams having moved and the cam gears just bolting on at any angle. Has anyone noticed that there was still some rotational play in the gates locking pins for the cams or was the just me? |
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