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Naturally Aspirated CRD?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85530		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  minuteman [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Naturally Aspirated CRD?
I bought my CRD new in 2005 and I've lurked here for years. Thanks to everyone who has enlightened the rest of us as to these little engines.

Recently I've been reading up on various vehicles that came with the R428 engine and looking at various pictures, some of which are NA. So for all the talk about the turbo being slapped on a NA design and all the inherit problems it causes with head gaskets, ccv, etc., what would happen if the turbo was blocked off, the airbox was routed to the intake (ccv likewise), and the engine thrown back to its original design? Would we get the 300k mile engine we all thought we had?

Maybe it's a foolish question and the electronics of the Jeep would never allow it, but I have to ask.

Image
Author:  Dent [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
You would have no power. Take your intake to CAC hose off and try to drive it.
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
The engine in that picture has a small turbo.

Anyway, without the turbo it wouldnt be any fun to drive.
Author:  rankom [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
you are right it is possible to do get there with little less power 300 miles plus . when i was in CUBA few years ago , first thing i did before jumping in the ocean , get to know the amazing people and knowledge of there mechanics , i saw RUSSIAN car (GAS ENGINE) converted into diesel (toyota rotary fuel pump) and they removed spark plugs in order to install injectors in cylinder head , and this thing had timing belt wary similar to our crd , so you guys think if you are on the island what we do with all the knowledge we have , ? i guess we would be LOST ……..we have issues timing our engine with all the help and manuals ,LOL
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
rankom wrote:
you are right it is possible to do get there with little less power 300 miles plus . when i was in CUBA few years ago , first thing i did before jumping in the ocean , get to know the amazing people and knowledge of there mechanics , i saw RUSSIAN car (GAS ENGINE) converted into diesel (toyota rotary fuel pump) and they removed spark plugs in order to install injectors in cylinder head , and this thing had timing belt wary similar to our crd , so you guys think if you are on the island what we do with all the knowledge we have , ? i guess we would be LOST ……..we have issues timing our engine with all the help and manuals ,LOL


How would that even work? Gas engines have 8:1 compression, direct injected need atleast 16:1, indirect injected around 21:1. Also ive never seen an injector that has the same threads as a sparkplug. Most of the indirect injected diesels have M20 threads, and most direct injectors are clamped in.
Author:  thesameguy [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
Domed pistons? Milled heads? Injector bung welded to a plug non-fouler?
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
I dont know how the idea started that the R428 was not meant to have a turbocharger.
Searching through all the engines listed on the VM website and all of them seem to have a turbo. Including the marine, industrial, and generator engines.
Author:  minuteman [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
flash7210 wrote:
I dont know how the idea started that the R428 was not meant to have a turbocharger.
Searching through all the engines listed on the VM website and all of them seem to have a turbo. Including the marine, industrial, and generator engines.


That is part of the reason for this inquiry. I haven't seen a pic of a NA VM Motori either. And if they're all turbo engines, how can such a large manufacturer of engines design a bad head, or studs, etc. Maybe the turbo is just mounted in a bad location or the engine its self is designed to be a 100,000 mile throw away? Maybe the failures come from towing and excessive engine strain for it's real capabilities? Maybe Jeep killed it with the EPA regs?

I read about the 3.0 ecodiesel and also and wonder how anyone, regardless of manufacturer specs, can tow 8k lbs with a 3.0 diesel of any manufacture and not expect a failure.

Anyway, so the consensus I'm getting is no, it is not a NA engine and it won't function as such. One of these days maybe I'll understand these little tractors better.
Author:  MM53 [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
Jeep killed it with the EPA regs? I vote yes and some people drive it like a gasser.
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
Why wouldnt a 3.0 diesel be able to tow 8000 lbs?
Theres really no reason why our 2.8 diesel cant tow 8k lbs.
Maybe not at 80mph on I-80 thru UT and CO, but 60mph on flat terrain is very doable.

Those that care are still trying to figure out what problem there is with the cylinder head.
Blown head gasket?
There is really no reason for a MLS gasket to fail. Other than weak or improperly torqued head bolts.
Cracked head?
Not sure yet. Could be a bad production batch. Could be some other external influence.
Broken valves?
Could be too high EGT, or bad production batch, or drivers competing in the rolex 24hr daytona race, or some other external influence.

There is nothing wrong with the turbo placment.
It doesnt get too hot or too little.
Just look at some setups where the turbo is placed in the middle of the V and being fed by both exhaust manifolds.
But you have to take care of your turbo. Allow for good turbo cooldown time.
Ive got 180k miles on my turbo.

There is no evidence that the north american R428 engine is any different from any european, austrailian, south american, or wherever R428 engine.
Regardless, there is no DPF, the EGR can be deleted, and the cat can be deleted too. So if you live in a location where emissions tests are not required, remove whatever emissions controls you require and live a happy life.
Author:  rankom [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
sorry for being off topic for your original post , regarding NA crd , but i want to compere some NA engines converted from gas to diesel , lucky i found pictures of this engine , i need to find way to post them, this guy have 4 door VOLGA with 2.5 l 4 cylinder push rod engine , i assume he did or his machine shop perform all necessary upgrades to make this work (GUY SPOKE SPANISH) so was difficult for me to get ill the info , anyway this engine have special bracket LS of block mounted toyota distributor diesel fuel pump , cog belt driven from fan hub sprocket , (BELT IS OPEN NO DUST SHIELDS) as far injectors they are in the location where spark plugs normally goes, yes they where larger size so he did machined and installed them , and yes as diesel guy sad this should not start or run , but my problem is IT DOES> so wait till i get these pictures going , also carburator is missing from its location (INTAKE MANIFO:D) and guy had flex tube hooked up to air cleaner canister .
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
Anyone remember the NA diesel engines in the VW Rabbits and Dashers? They were almost identical to their gasser counterparts and some parts were even interchangeable. Worked on a bunch of them way back when they were popular. Came in 1.5 & 1.6L versions and got up into the 40's & 50's in mpg but were very low on power... :roll:
You can read about the motors here:>http://mk1diesel.weebly.com/engines.html
Author:  minuteman [ Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
There was a guy in Georgia who was putting used tractor engines in F150's and selling them. A friend way back had one and loved it. Took a minute to get up to speed and was loud as sin, but he was getting 50mpg out of it. Last I saw him he was still driving it.

I understand the benefits of a turbo, especially since I live in a mountain town and need the take off and climbing boost, but my original post was intended to consider things other than the power loss. Would the shift points in the trans change? Would the injectors meter right with negative intake pressure? Could the ECM be tuned to help bridge the gap and clear the trouble codes?

I may slap a cone filter on the weeks elbow one day and go for a short drive.
Author:  mass-hole [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Naturally Aspirated CRD?
You would need some tuning to run without a turbo. The Engine would bump up against the AFR maps and would be smoking like crazy. You'd have to increase the AFR to get it to run mostly smoke free which would probably reduce power even more than what you would feel from just removing your CAC hose.

I've had my boost hose blow off before and the jeep could barely maintain 50 mph. it would probably be fine in a small economy car with tiny tires and low aero drag.

Thats interesting that the minimum BSFC in that chart is at 2000 rpm because I swear my jeep used to get its best MPG's at 75 mph/2000 rpm. Now with the lift and tires it gets crap not matter how fast i go.
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