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ARP prevail post-tightening
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85877		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  ARP prevail post-tightening
I just got done installing the ARP's, and although everything seemed kosher I saw a post (Geordi?) Indicating that there should be one or two threads visible above the nut. Given my unfamiliarty with the stud length in relation to the depth of the block sleeves I'm slightly concerned that the ARP's could potentially "bottom-out" if set too deep, and you'd be torqueing against the hole-bottom instead of the head-top.
So, is this an acceptable amount of prevail?

Image

Thanks!
Author:  cevans [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
You won't be torquing to bottom out since you are pulling the stud upwards when you torque the nut, not pushing it downwards. The torque point is happening at the nut and at the top-most threads of the stud.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Right...
I suppose it's a pretty stupid question given that they are finger-tightened to flush before torqueing, so any lift at all confirms that they aren't bottomed-out in the block sleeves. Doh! I guess the "one or two threads visible" post left me somewhat leery.
Thanks.

Hey, "cevans": are you with IDPARTS? You guys are heroes for providing parts for these rarefied beasts. In the hope of long-term reliability I'm performing major preventative maintenance and you guys have supplied me with: HG/ARPS/Exh. Valves-seals/Rockers /tbelt kit-H2O-thermo/mounts/glos/filters, etc. A certainty of more ahead.
Buuut, what's the deal with your front crank seal??? Sorry, but those things are not acceptable. I didn't think to inspect the oil seals before unpackaging them for installation. While IDP's cam seals are entirely adequate conventional two-lip seals, that front crank seal is a single-lip, noticeably sloppy p.o.s. Sorry, but that is the worst oil seal I've ever seen, and the prospect of suffering an unnecessary oil leak after all this work is kind of infuriating. I'm actually thinking about removing it before proceeding, mic'ing the crank O.D. and sleeve-width and paying my Amigos at the Ensenada Azone $5 to let me pour through their oil seals in search of a standard two-lip seal that fits.
Rant complete.
Thank you.

-ARP install tip: I used a drill-bit shank (slightly loose-fitting) to uniformly spread the ARP lube inside the nuts' threads; seemed fast and effective.
Author:  mass-hole [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Gypsy62 wrote:
Right...
I suppose it's a pretty stupid question given that they are finger-tightened to flush before torqueing, so any lift at all confirms that they aren't bottomed-out in the block sleeves. Doh! I guess the "one or two threads visible" post left me somewhat leery.
Thanks.

Hey, "cevans": are you with IDPARTS? You guys are heroes for providing parts for these rarefied beasts. In the hope of long-term reliability I'm performing major preventative maintenance and you guys have supplied me with: HG/ARPS/Exh. Valves-seals/Rockers /tbelt kit-H2O-thermo/mounts/glos/filters, etc. A certainty of more ahead.
Buuut, what's the deal with your front crank seal??? Sorry, but those things are not acceptable. I didn't think to inspect the oil seals before unpackaging them for installation. While IDP's cam seals are entirely adequate conventional two-lip seals, that front crank seal is a single-lip, noticeably sloppy p.o.s. Sorry, but that is the worst oil seal I've ever seen, and the prospect of suffering an unnecessary oil leak after all this work is kind of infuriating. I'm actually thinking about removing it before proceeding, mic'ing the crank O.D. and sleeve-width and paying my Amigos at the Ensenada Azone $5 to let me pour through their oil seals in search of a standard two-lip seal that fits.
Rant complete.
Thank you.

-ARP install tip: I used a drill-bit shank (slightly loose-fitting) to uniformly spread the ARP lube inside the nuts' threads; seemed fast and effective.

My guess with the two thread exposed rule is to ensure that the nut is fully engaged with the stud. I'm sure you noticed the threads that go into the block are a bit more substantial than the nut threads, so to have the nut not fully engaged would be more of an issue than the stud in the block.
Author:  jws84_02 [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Yeah what you have pictured is fine. I have actually ran a stud all the way down just to see and I could only get the nut on a couple turns
Author:  Mountainman [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
X2 Looks good, I've set several sets just like what you have there with no problems
Author:  geordi [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Sorry for being late - moving sucks.

Yes, your setup looks just fine. The whole point for pre-assembling the stud, nut and washer is so that when hand / finger tight, you would only be torquing on the "shallow ramp" of the nut b/c the much steeper ramp of the block threads will just be too impossible to overcome by turning the nut, and the stud will remain fixed in position.

Ending up with anything above the nut is acceptable, having zero or less than zero threads protruding is not - that means that the nut is NOT achieving the maximum possible clamping and most likely will result in trouble in the future. You are good. Drive on.
Author:  flman [ Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
I set mine flush, and then torqued them. Unless these studs are crap, I doubt I will have any problems.
Author:  lacabrera [ Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Not That I have used these studs but seem to remember the top has a finer thread pitch than the stud bottom. Done deliberately so when its torqued it turns the nut not the stud.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
lacabrera wrote:
Not That I have used these studs but seem to remember the top has a finer thread pitch than the stud bottom. Done deliberately so when its torqued it turns the nut not the stud.


Yes, and yes.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
On the other issue, are you saying that the new oil seal is not a match to the old one you removed? Is there a picture of that?

Thanks
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
Happy New Year!
I'm delaying New Year's celebration until seated above a purring CRD. To that goal, many thanks to the generous SuperTechs on LJ whose hard-fought experience continues to help guide me through this maze of CRD mechanical mischief.

Yes, the replacement single-lip, sloppy, lawn-mower-grade front crank seal I purchased from IDparts (nobody's perfect) does not match the one I removed, which is a nicely robust two-lip "conventional" oil seal. I will take pics of both after I REPLACE the IDP I installed. My mechanical conscience won't rest relying on that absolute crap of a seal, so tomorrow I'm pedaling to auto parts stores with trusty calipers to bribe employees (as necessary or not) to permit me to pour-through their inventory of oil seals in search of a:
38mm I.D., 55mm-ish O.D., and 8mm-ish wide two-lip seal.

Online, it appears 40/55/8mm is not a too-rare size, but 40mm would not appear to provide an adequately tight seal around the crank.

So, regarding crank and cam specs: other calipers/eyes please confirm/adjust at will:
Crank OD at seal= 38.5mm. (Tapers to 38mm at woodruff slot)
Crank Seal-Bore = 55mm +/- (corrected from 69.5; misread lip)
Cam OD = 30mm
Cam Seal-Bore = 47mm (+/-).
Seal Width 8mm.

If/after a few techs with loose cranks, cams and new OEM seals laying around confirm/adjust these specs, I'll post a separate thread w/keywords & pics for future searches (add to "wish list" a pic of a loose flywheel to assist visualizing the 1/4" timing-bolt hole). Hopefully, if/when I find an acceptable substitute for IDP's lousy seal I'll also obtain a cross-reference for non-CRD vehicle applications for future sourcing.
Worth repeating: IDP's CAM seals are entirely adequate, only the supplied Crank seal is garbage. Maybe this is a temporary-stock shortcoming?
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
And Happy New Year to you as well.

Not to belabor the issue, but have you contacted IDParts to verify that what you ordered / received was what they intended to ship and the correct part? Most everything they provide is Factory OEM. What isn't has been better in my limited experience. I guess I just don't understand if they sell OEM seals, why they would be different than what you pulled out, unless by some error a wrong part was pulled and shipped, or perhaps mistakenly included in some set.

I am certain that if you contact them with your situation, you'll get better results, with less money and time invested, than anyplace in Ensenada. (Nothing personal against them, but I did spend a few years in Norte de Baja myself.)

Good Luck however you go about it.
Author:  Gypsy62 [ Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ARP prevail post-tightening
The central parts issue here is that the CRD was never sold here so -from MX franchises of Chrysler to Napa to Azone to carquest- all related parts come up as unobtainium (the stealership charges about 35% on TOP of US dealer-list for their hassle to import CRD parts from US...).
Every time it's necessary to order parts online, whether from IDP or otherwise, delivery adds a week onto the job. I was hoping those serial delays were done, and I'm not sure a better oil seal is just cause.

As for IDPARTS, they have been great; my tbelt "kit" came with a damaged water pump (tbelt flange was chipped) and they readily sent me a replacement with zero grief (I'm waiting for them to mail a return shipping label to return the damaged pump).
My Lib has 140kish, and the PO was an adult so I'm probably installing it's third tbelt; who knows if/when the front crank seal was replaced prior, but the one I removed appears to be one of the better-made seals I've ever seen.
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