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CRD Dyno Test Results.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87413		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  CRD Dyno Test Results.
For the last year I've occasionally seen various numbers claimed, based I suppose on what the vehicle feels like, as I've seen no hard data.
I decided to satisfy my curiosity at the present, by getting some real numbers.
So, Thursday I had a "play date" with some really cool folks and a Mustang Chassis Dynamometer. This dyno allowed introduced simulated inertia, as if the entire vehicle were running on a track. Of course I would NEVER drive like this on a road, as I was taking it to 100ish MPH in 3rd gear locked. *cough*

I wanted to get a baseline with the original factory tune first. I will say it was a little higher than I expected.
All the mods and upgrades are listed in my sig below. Details of each configuration are indicated.

Original tune
Image


Because I haven't been able to afford a GDE tune yet, and the original tune doesn't entertain me enough. Further, I only have the EGR wires fooled by the original solenoid, and the FCV still shows DTC, I have Loaded Yeti's free 1.02 mild tune with FCV only dtc delete. AND I acquired a DiabloSport Extreme PowerPuck P1030 for 05-06 Jeep Liberty CRD and have it cranked to 11, Giving 100%.
DISCLOSURE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CONFIGURATION I RECOMMEND FOR ANYONE (THE DIABLOSPORT PUCK). THE PROBLEM IS IT MODIFIES BOTH RAIL PRESSURE AND BOOST PRESSURE IN WAYS THE ECM DOES NOT KNOW AND CANNOT CONTROL. I'VE UNWISELY TAKEN THIS RISK ON MYSELF AGAINST WARNINGS OF OTHERS WHO KNOW.
Image

The graphs show the exact results of the changes, and, to me, explain why the Liar Puck feels better for me. The power difference is not hardly felt, and I rarely use a lot of accelerator. What i feel is that the low rpm torque comes on so strong. I estimate around 80+% of my driving is with engine rpm between 1700 and 2400.
If you look at the 1800rpm start of the graph, the stock tune at that point is about 80lbs ft, and about 20 HP.
When you compare the start of the graph, with the 1.02 Yeti free tune plus Liar Puck fully jacked is 130lbs ft, and about 45 HP. That is a significant difference right in the rpm range of most of my driving. It also comes on more gradually than the stock torque does, and peaks later.

We did a lot more runs trying to satisfy my curiosity and see what various things do. I will do more of this, but I will have to wait til more changes are done and savings allow for more Dyno time.

If the picture doesn't show, and just says 'Image' then right click it and use 'view image.'
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
Just FYI - GDE vs stock specs are posted at http://www.greendieselengineering.com/j ... st/20.page
Author:  flash7210 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
Can’t view the graphs.
Can you post the links to them?
Author:  joe_ [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
flash7210 wrote:
Can’t view the graphs.
Can you post the links to them?
Liberty CRD original stock tune, no mods or power adders: https://postimg.org/image/49s0oynyz/
Yeti free 1.02 mild tune, FCV dtc delete only WITH DiabloSport: https://postimg.org/image/bczw4klor/
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
flash7210 wrote:
Can’t view the graphs.
Can you post the links to them?

If you right click on the word "Image" it will open or a least I was able to view them.

This is them:
:wink:

Image

Image
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
papaindigo wrote:
Just FYI - GDE vs stock specs are posted at http://www.greendieselengineering.com/j ... st/20.page

I understand those to be flywheel numbers.
The ones here are all actual power to the ground

And thanks for getting the images to show.

Here's another one.

Image
Author:  mass-hole [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
I wouldnt be worried about the powerpuck itself, but I would recommend against a tune AND a power puck. Without knowing what the Powerpuck tries to target for rail pressure, its possibly that it throws it beyond the sensors maximum reading of 1800 bar and causes the ECU to basically try to chase down a desired pressure that it will never reach. The sensor wont read any higher, but the ECU is being faked into thinking its lower than what the tune wants it to be. Stock tuning is 1600 bar and Yetis is 1664. The same could happen with boost, but you have more wiggle room I think since its a 3 bar sensor and was only see 2.3-2.5 bar at most.

Its possible it has a fail safe in there that keeps it below 1800 but we dont know that.

Do you have an actual boost gauge to see what it is actually at with the tune and puck?
Author:  mass-hole [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
I had seen stock results before and remember them being oddly close to the factory flywheel rating which was weird to me.
Author:  Yeti [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
safe rail pressure is 1700 bar , with 1700 bar you can burn 120 mm3 of fuel with right turbo pressure and soi degree .
the value of the Dyno is at the weel not at the flyweel
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
mass-hole wrote:
I wouldnt be worried about the powerpuck itself, but I would recommend against a tune AND a power puck. Without knowing what the Powerpuck tries to target for rail pressure, its possibly that it throws it beyond the sensors maximum reading of 1800 bar and causes the ECU to basically try to chase down a desired pressure that it will never reach. The sensor wont read any higher, but the ECU is being faked into thinking its lower than what the tune wants it to be. Stock tuning is 1600 bar and Yetis is 1664. The same could happen with boost, but you have more wiggle room I think since its a 3 bar sensor and was only see 2.3-2.5 bar at most.
Its possible it has a fail safe in there that keeps it below 1800 but we dont know that.
Do you have an actual boost gauge to see what it is actually at with the tune and puck?

I have a Power Puck on top of the Stage IV tune and I have a mechanical boost gauge!
I do not monitor rail pressure. I never turn the PP up past 50% (rheostat), normally leave it closer to about 10-15%.
If you turn the PP up past 50% (I did one time to test) I can get up into the 30 to 35 psi range. Turn it it too high and get on it, and it will go into limp mode! Probably sensors run out of range? :roll:
I normally keep it set to where I get ~25 psi boost on hard acceleration. Plenty of power and no black smoke! :pepper:

This is what I have on file for both the OEM and the GM MAP sensor:

0 281 002 845 3 bar (11 kPa @ 0.25V , 307 kPa @ 4.75V)
Bosch 3.0 Bar T-Map Sensor / 0 281 002 845
Scalar A - 279.5555528
Scalar B - 0.23529412
Offset - 5.44444 (repeating)
using 65.7777 as the first multiplier, 1 as the second multiplier, and 5.4444 as the offset/additive.
= 11.0 kPa at 0.25v, 300.4219 kPa at 4.65v, and 306.9997 kPa at 4.75v
Author:  mass-hole [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
WWDiesel wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
I wouldnt be worried about the powerpuck itself, but I would recommend against a tune AND a power puck. Without knowing what the Powerpuck tries to target for rail pressure, its possibly that it throws it beyond the sensors maximum reading of 1800 bar and causes the ECU to basically try to chase down a desired pressure that it will never reach. The sensor wont read any higher, but the ECU is being faked into thinking its lower than what the tune wants it to be. Stock tuning is 1600 bar and Yetis is 1664. The same could happen with boost, but you have more wiggle room I think since its a 3 bar sensor and was only see 2.3-2.5 bar at most.
Its possible it has a fail safe in there that keeps it below 1800 but we dont know that.
Do you have an actual boost gauge to see what it is actually at with the tune and puck?

I have a Power Puck on top of the Stage IV tune and I have a mechanical boost gauge!
I do not monitor rail pressure. I never turn the PP up past 50% (rheostat), normally leave it closer to about 10-15%.
If you turn the PP up past 50% (I did one time to test) I can get up into the 30 to 35 psi range. Turn it it too high and get on it, and it will go into limp mode! Probably sensors run out of range? :roll:
I normally keep it set to where I get ~25 psi boost on hard acceleration. Plenty of power and no black smoke! :pepper:

This is what I have on file for both the OEM and the GM MAP sensor:

0 281 002 845 3 bar (11 kPa @ 0.25V , 307 kPa @ 4.75V)
Bosch 3.0 Bar T-Map Sensor / 0 281 002 845
Scalar A - 279.5555528
Scalar B - 0.23529412
Offset - 5.44444 (repeating)
using 65.7777 as the first multiplier, 1 as the second multiplier, and 5.4444 as the offset/additive.
= 11.0 kPa at 0.25v, 300.4219 kPa at 4.65v, and 306.9997 kPa at 4.75v


Right, I remember that. Yeah it probably was out of range and got a an underboost code? The ECU wanted X, but the Sensor was already at 3 bar and didnt go any higher.

Seeing as 3bar is only 28.8 psig, it sounds like thats probably what happended.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
mass-hole wrote:
Right, I remember that. Yeah it probably was out of range and got a an underboost code? The ECU wanted X, but the Sensor was already at 3 bar and didnt go any higher.
Seeing as 3bar is only 28.8 psig, it sounds like thats probably what happended.

Yes, I think ~25 psi is a good safe place to stay! :roll:
Author:  Yeti [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
25 psi is 1,72 bar and i think is the max boost this turbo can manage
Author:  mass-hole [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
I’m running a 3:1 pressure ratio here at altitude and it’s been ok for over a year now. Thats only 21 psi but my atmospheric pressure is 20% lower so its working as hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
mass-hole wrote:
I wouldnt be worried about the powerpuck itself, but I would recommend against a tune AND a power puck. Without knowing what the Powerpuck tries to target for rail pressure, its possibly that it throws it beyond the sensors maximum reading of 1800 bar and causes the ECU to basically try to chase down a desired pressure that it will never reach. The sensor wont read any higher, but the ECU is being faked into thinking its lower than what the tune wants it to be. Stock tuning is 1600 bar and Yetis is 1664. The same could happen with boost, but you have more wiggle room I think since its a 3 bar sensor and was only see 2.3-2.5 bar at most.

Exactly. It's adjustable for how big of a lie it tells the ECM, but still, whatever numbers the ECM are trying to achieve (tune) it's still giving false information to the ECM. AGAIN, i DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS! I don't have separate gauges YET, so even if I get live data from the OBD2, that's the false information being told to the ECM. Until I get proper gauges rather than OBD2 based data I don't know the absolute accurate numbers.

Its possible it has a fail safe in there that keeps it below 1800 but we dont know that.

Do you have an actual boost gauge to see what it is actually at with the tune and puck? I have a mech boost gauge, but not installed yet. I have an intercept coupling for the fuel rail data ordered but it's backordered or something.

I don't plan on running the DiabloSport much longer. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what changes it makes. I hope it stays together long enough to find out.
Author:  Yeti [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
I'll try to explain

when you increase the fuel pressure by fooling the ecu , you not only increase the prex but you inject more fuel

when you do in the ecu it depend on how the injection time is programmed , example in our ecu this map is programmed for 96mm3 and 1700 bar , if I increase the fuel pressure I shortening the time of the injection "more pressure less time" but same IQ .
if this map is programmed for 1600 bar and i increase the rail pressure the time stay at the last value for 1600 bar and I increase indirectly the fuel injected like the power puck do , but only at the max prex , where the pressure is not at max value every bar I increase I only shortened the injection time
Author:  flash7210 [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
Thanks for getting the pictures up.

Those numbers are a bit disappointing. But it’s probably due to dyno calibration and the fact that you have to kinda feather the throttle to keep the TC from shuddering.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
A couple of other data bits to disclose for completeness.

The ambient temperature on that day was 47 degrees F, and humidity was 100%. Falling weather all day, no real wind to speak of. just an occasional light gust.

In the process of the many minor difference things I tested, I at one time did 4 pulls back to back to back. Even with the exhaust and turbo heat soak, the ECT stayed between 170 and 180F all day even though it was strapped down and only one external fan as shown in the picture.
The radiator is original as far as I know, it was cleaned and flushed and resprayed with radiator paint 3300 miles ago.
The thermostat is a new mopar unit. 3300 miles. it seems to be functioning as intended.
The water pump is new. 3300 miles
The fan clutch and fan are as shown in my sig.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
flash7210 wrote:
Thanks for getting the pictures up.

Those numbers are a bit disappointing. But it’s probably due to dyno calibration and the fact that you have to kinda feather the throttle to keep the TC from shuddering.


The dyno was freshly repaired and was calibrated the morning of the tests.
only one other vehicle was run before mine, to test it. It was their shop truck, and whacked out over 1000 HP. There was no room for ego running the CRD LOL

These aren't the only findings or results I tested for, but more information on that later.

As far as encouraging or disappointing, the results are completely real for this vehicle, and REAL data is what I'm after. No guessing, no butt dynos, no gps guessing in windy weather.. Just REAL Consistent Data.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Dyno Test Results.
flash7210 wrote:
and the fact that you have to kinda feather the throttle to keep the TC from shuddering.

This was the biggest deal. Not so much from the TC, but trying to get the most throttle as possible, without downshifting to 2nd.
All of the major variations between same configurations runs are due to differences of throttle application.

There were many many discarded runs because I went pedal down too fast, or backed out due to lockup clutch issues, but the clutch ones are easy to see, The graph ends up looking like a cartoon lightening bolt. This is one of the characteristics of the chassis dyno. There were several discarded for the first 15 to 20 minutes until the tires dried out, and the anchor straps were tightened to the point the tires weren't breaking loose on the rollers.
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