CCV oil problem & oil wt.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed May 17, 2006 10:13 am

The original reason for the 0w-40 and 5w-40 oils was to increase MPG's, our CRD's have no reason as for as oil goes to use a the 0w-40 or 5w-40 other then MPG's and when or if we were to go to 15w-50 be it synthetic or not, the CRD would take a MPG hit. If we were to start using 15w-50 conventional oil our 28 MPG rated rig would probably drop that to 25 or 26 MPG, this is no big hit to you or I, but in the grand scheme of things we are talking millions of gallons of fuel a year in just our CRD's world wide.

One problem we all face is durring warranty period if we fail to use a 0w-40 or 5w-40 synthetic oil that meets the required API rating we stand the risk of lose of warranty. I'm not sure I want to risk that lose myself.

All that said I am quite sure the oil in the intake system would be reduced greatly, doubt it would be completly eliminanted however. This oil is really no big problem except when mixed with the EGR dust, then we have a whole new problem.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 12:43 am

If I remember correctly, a couple of months back I saw a post by someone where the DEALER actually put in Rotella 15W40 synthetic when the vehicle was in for service. It was from someone down in Texas (not my friend), and may have been over on the Yahoo Groups list.

The dealership did a lot of service on diesels. When the guy questioned the mechanic as to why they put in 15W40, he was told that was the best weight for a diesel in the hot climate of Texas, that 0W40 or 5W40 was just too thin, and they'd never had any problems with the vehicles they serviced using 15W40 (including CRD's).

Sounds like an honest-to-god mechanic, one that knows the difference between what the book says and what actually works! :shock:

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 5:24 am

retmil46 wrote:

If I remember correctly, a couple of months back I saw a post by someone where the DEALER actually put in Rotella 15W40 synthetic when the vehicle was in for service. It was from someone down in Texas (not my friend), and may have been over on the Yahoo Groups list.

The dealership did a lot of service on diesels. When the guy questioned the mechanic as to why they put in 15W40, he was told that was the best weight for a diesel in the hot climate of Texas, that 0W40 or 5W40 was just too thin, and they'd never had any problems with the vehicles they serviced using 15W40 (including CRD's).

Sounds like an honest-to-god mechanic, one that knows the difference between what the book says and what actually works! :shock:

The call that I got the other day from DC Customer Service was far from confidence inspiring about their knowledge of or service recommendations for this engine. Had something to do with telling me my turbo would not be covered under DC warranty because it was an aftermarket add-on. Anyways, going to pay a visit to an old contact at the local Detroit Diesel/Allison dealer to discuss my oily turbo issues. This subject is integral to the discussion. This motor is virtually a miniature clone of a big diesel, don't see any reason why a conventional CI-4/CI-4+, 15W40 would not be appropriate. If it meets the approval of Detroit Diesel and it cures the turbo from passing oil, the synthetic is gone. Will post the result on this thread.

Reggie · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 9:27 am

oldnavy wrote:

All that said I am quite sure the oil in the intake system would be reduced greatly, doubt it would be completly eliminanted however. This oil is really no big problem except when mixed with the EGR dust, then we have a whole new problem.

I ran several different oils in my tdi - 0W40, Rotella T 5W40, Delvac 1, 5W40, Redline 15W40 along with a CCV trap. After 8k miles on each oil, there was no difference between the amount that was traped in the CCV filter. I would have figured that the Redline 15W40 would do a lot better considering it had a much better evaporation rating on it. There is more to the amount of oil in the intake than just the evaporation rating. Blowby, turbulance, oil spray, RPMs, position of the CCV connections, ect may all have a greater impact than the oils evaporation rating.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 10:15 am

Something to remember when talking about oil & CCV's:

In a mineral based oil, the only thing that flows like a 10W at cold temps IS a 10W. Thus when a 10W-40 is made, one begins with a 20,000 gallon vat of 10W oil then you add VI improvers (plastic coil springs) which expand when heated, shrink when cooled. Thus the 10W oil has the viscosity of a 40W at operational temps, a 10W when cooled.

With a full synthetic Group IV or group V oil, we can actually start out with a 40W base stock, as synthetic oils do not thicken with cold temps (nor do they thin as much as mineral based oils with heat). So, a 40W base stock may meet the cold flow characteristics of a 10W, even a 0W, thus enabling the 0W-40 API rating. Thus contrary to the old wive's tale, (that synthetics are 'thin' and thus leak) most synthetic oils are actually thicker than their mineral based equivalents.. George Morrison, STLE CLS

The above statement was an answer from one of the leading experts on oil engineering and testing about how oil viscosity works concerning using to thick or thin an oil in an engine.

What this means is we are using 40 wt oil in the engine, and at operating temp it is a 40 wt oil. Only at initial start up when the oil is cold is the oil "thin like 0w or 5w oil" as it warms up the viscosity of the oil changes back to the 40w oil. The 15w-40 conventional is only 15 wt oil as a base stock and then at operating temps thickens to what the standard is for the 40wt oil at a specific oil temp. That means at operating the 5w-40 synthetic oil is actually a HOT 40 wt oil and the conventional oil is a phony or assisted to become a 40 wt oil.

Any questions, disagreements or discussion is more then welcome.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 9:35 pm

Had a very short conversation with the service manager of the local Detroit Diesel dealer. Very short because the first words out of his mouth was "We are not authorized to work on the Jeep motor." Would not comment on any technical information or acceptable oils. Actually sounded coached on his response.

valkraider · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 10:10 pm

How would the weight affect mileage, once the vehicle is warmed up?

If the oil is a 0w40 or a 15w40, either way at operating temperature it would be like a 40w.

Wouldn't mileage be more affected by the other properties of the oil, like additives or whatnot - more than it would be by the weight.

Again, assuming the vehicle is warmed up...

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu May 18, 2006 10:55 pm

valkraider wrote:

How would the weight affect mileage, once the vehicle is warmed up?

If the oil is a 0w40 or a 15w40, either way at operating temperature it would be like a 40w.

Wouldn't mileage be more affected by the other properties of the oil, like additives or whatnot - more than it would be by the weight.

Again, assuming the vehicle is warmed up...

The theory is that thinner oils are easier to pump thus cause less drag on the engine so can tweek out higher mileage. Personally a believer in friction modifiers. Been adding a product similiar to Prolong that I have been buying from a local tribologist for the past 15 years. Oil becomes very slippery with this stuff. Even had a 6V92 loose a turbo oiler line on the expressway. Blew out all it's oil to where the low oil shutdowns stalled the engine. Repaired on the side of the road and driven away. The turbo and blower even survived, ran fine for 2 more years. I was sold after that incident, won't run a vehicle without it.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri May 19, 2006 7:20 am

valkraider wrote:

How would the weight affect mileage, once the vehicle is warmed up?

If the oil is a 0w40 or a 15w40, either way at operating temperature it would be like a 40w.

Wouldn't mileage be more affected by the other properties of the oil, like additives or whatnot - more than it would be by the weight.

Again, assuming the vehicle is warmed up...

It seems the mfg's found about 3% to 6% better fuel mileage when going from 10w conventional to a 0w synthetic. Now to you and I that small savings do not seem worth talking about and in some cases we could not even tell the increase, but when measured across millions of auto's it is a huge drop in gas used and oil import needed. Just think the effect we are having with the CRD and our average 30% better fuel mileage. Also there was a big fuel savings in winter starts and warm up with the 0w synthetic over the petro 10w oil common used for the last 3 decades.

The wt of oil does make a difference in mpg's and in a non synthetic with wear it gradually looses the ability to be a 15w-40 and by oil change viscosity may be down to 30 wt or even 20 wt, however if oil is over heated it starts to thicken and then starts forming sludge. Mfg's have had a lot of engine problems with some models in the last 10 years and most due to owners and mechanic's/service managers not understanding the importance of using oil required by the auto maker. Sometimes the manufactures were late finding out this problem, Chrysler & Toyota come to mind here.

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

winter2 (posted here I believe, but a regular at edmunds) made the switch to 15w40 amsoil. Another post referred a switch to 15w40 on a ford(thought that was standard) stopped oil in intake. Seriously considering the same. What does this liquid sooted oil, after messing up the intake, do to the catalytic converter since we don't turn syn oil to blue smoke?

Camping world's latest brochure has PRI-D for sell. Fuel stabilizer and "complete combustion additive"? More snake oil?

onthehunt · **Posted:** Sun May 21, 2006 10:16 pm

Detriot diesel doesn't want any part of your problems! I've personally seen this done. Farmer comes into to Navistar dealer to get his "still under warranty" power stroke ford to get fixed. The first thing that goes through the service manager's mind is "why is he bringing it here?" This is how it goes:

1. Usually truck is all beat up and not taken care of. Service manager says" I'm sorry, were not authorized to do warranty work on those"

2. Truck is very well taken care of and owner is very mad to start with. Service manager says" I'm sorry, were not authorized to work on those"

He tells you this because you went out of your way to bring it here and he knows that something isn't right about the whole situation. You have either beaten the snot out of it, not maintained it, have a "ghost in the machine problem" that the dealer can't fix, you are one of those people that complain about every squeek in the dash and can't be satisfied or you have an honest problem that can't be fixed because the manufacturer doesn't know what is going on or how to fix it. The service manager wants no part of any because you can't win. A simple " were not authorized to work on this" sounds good to me too!!

jeep06 · **Posted:** Mon May 22, 2006 4:21 pm

I posted this on the "other forum" and thought I would try to get some ideas here.
"Has anyone noticed a drop in oil blow-by as the engine breaks in? I figure with the engine new and the rings not seated well, there would be a little more blow-by/oil mist until the engine was completely broke in (10k mi or so?). Also the black puck where the ccv hose is attached is called an oil separator in the FSM. Must be a poor design as much oil that still leaves the engine through the hose. Just some thoughts, thinking about the Provent or open air. does anyone have the model Provent you are running, or do you just call and tell them what you are putting it on?? Thanks."

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon May 22, 2006 6:31 pm

jeep06 wrote:

I posted this on the "other forum" and thought I would try to get some ideas here.
"Has anyone noticed a drop in oil blow-by as the engine breaks in? I figure with the engine new and the rings not seated well, there would be a little more blow-by/oil mist until the engine was completely broke in (10k mi or so?). Also the black puck where the ccv hose is attached is called an oil separator in the FSM. Must be a poor design as much oil that still leaves the engine through the hose. Just some thoughts, thinking about the Provent or open air. does anyone have the model Provent you are running, or do you just call and tell them what you are putting it on?? Thanks."

Some have seen to slow oil useage and other don't, on the VW forum we never could nail it down to anyone thing or cause. Before you buy Provent just do the vent trick, you may want to wait for the one I will be testing and showing this weekend. It will be a 3 to 5 minute install, fit under engine cover and require no plumbers nightmare to install like the provent.

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

Now I'm even more sorry we can't do another non-stop trip upnorth this weekend. Thanks for the update and the better half and I wish you the best on your trip.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 23, 2006 7:17 am

jeep06 wrote:

I posted this on the "other forum" and thought I would try to get some ideas here.
"Has anyone noticed a drop in oil blow-by as the engine breaks in? I figure with the engine new and the rings not seated well, there would be a little more blow-by/oil mist until the engine was completely broke in (10k mi or so?). Also the black puck where the ccv hose is attached is called an oil separator in the FSM. Must be a poor design as much oil that still leaves the engine through the hose. Just some thoughts, thinking about the Provent or open air. does anyone have the model Provent you are running, or do you just call and tell them what you are putting it on?? Thanks."

Sounds like you are feeling a little burned by DC on this, join the club. Finding the "new" wears off the CRD quickly if you look closely at what they built. The Provent model is a 200 and I like it but was a time consuming PITA to install. I would do the $10 open vent special this close to getting the Old Navy filter released.

jeep06 · **Posted:** Tue May 23, 2006 4:53 pm

Sounds like you are feeling a little burned by DC on this, join the club. Finding the "new" wears off the CRD quickly if you look closely at what they built. The Provent model is a 200 and I like it but was a time consuming PITA to install. I would do the $10 open vent special this close to getting the Old Navy filter released.[/quote]

Yes just a little sick feeling when I see the way some of the things are put together, mind you I love this ride, but it seems like my Cummins saga all over again. Take a GREAT engine and mess it up with poor designing/add ons.... oh well hopefully things will be good when they (DCX) figure it all out??

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed May 24, 2006 7:02 am

RFCRD wrote:

jeep06 wrote:

I posted this on the "other forum" and thought I would try to get some ideas here.
"Has anyone noticed a drop in oil blow-by as the engine breaks in? I figure with the engine new and the rings not seated well, there would be a little more blow-by/oil mist until the engine was completely broke in (10k mi or so?). Also the black puck where the ccv hose is attached is called an oil separator in the FSM. Must be a poor design as much oil that still leaves the engine through the hose. Just some thoughts, thinking about the Provent or open air. does anyone have the model Provent you are running, or do you just call and tell them what you are putting it on?? Thanks."

Sounds like you are feeling a little burned by DC on this, join the club. Finding the "new" wears off the CRD quickly if you look closely at what they built. The Provent model is a 200 and I like it but was a time consuming PITA to install. I would do the $10 open vent special this close to getting the Old Navy filter released.

Don't blame DC, it's part of being on the "bleeding edge". I've owned 2 tdi's. The first a 96 Passat wagon that had no egr and I used dino Rotella 15-40 for over 100k and no problems. Early on it had a bad engine vent (hocky puck) and dumped oil into the intake. Dealer first replaced turbo :lol:

Then figured it out. Second tdi was a 99.5 jetta tdi. I used rotella 5-40 and at 55k the intake was half closed up with crud :cry:

I noticed the oil vapor coming out of the filler cap on my new crd and knew I needed to act. Even to the extent of open venting in the short term. I've not read the TDI club in a while (son has my 99.5 jetta now) but are there any GTG around central Ohio?

Joe

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed May 24, 2006 7:03 am

RFCRD wrote:

jeep06 wrote:

I posted this on the "other forum" and thought I would try to get some ideas here.
"Has anyone noticed a drop in oil blow-by as the engine breaks in? I figure with the engine new and the rings not seated well, there would be a little more blow-by/oil mist until the engine was completely broke in (10k mi or so?). Also the black puck where the ccv hose is attached is called an oil separator in the FSM. Must be a poor design as much oil that still leaves the engine through the hose. Just some thoughts, thinking about the Provent or open air. does anyone have the model Provent you are running, or do you just call and tell them what you are putting it on?? Thanks."

Sounds like you are feeling a little burned by DC on this, join the club. Finding the "new" wears off the CRD quickly if you look closely at what they built. The Provent model is a 200 and I like it but was a time consuming PITA to install. I would do the $10 open vent special this close to getting the Old Navy filter released.

Don't blame DC, it's part of being on the "bleeding edge". I've owned 2 tdi's. The first a 96 Passat wagon that had no egr and I used dino Rotella 15-40 for over 100k and no problems. Early on it had a bad engine vent (hocky puck) and dumped oil into the intake. Dealer first replaced turbo :lol:

Then figured it out. Second tdi was a 99.5 jetta tdi. I used rotella 5-40 and at 55k the intake was half closed up with crud :cry:

I noticed the oil vapor coming out of the filler cap on my new crd and knew I needed to act. Even to the extent of open venting in the short term. I've not read the TDI club in a while (son has my 99.5 jetta now) but are there any GTG around central Ohio?

Joe

jeep06 · **Posted:** Wed May 24, 2006 7:19 am

Don't blame DC, it's part of being on the "bleeding edge". I've owned 2 tdi's. The first a 96 Passat wagon that had no egr and I used dino Rotella 15-40 for over 100k and no problems. Early on it had a bad engine vent (hocky puck) and dumped oil into the intake. Dealer first replaced turbo :lol:

Then figured it out. Second tdi was a 99.5 jetta tdi. I used rotella 5-40 and at 55k the intake was half closed up with crud :cry:

I noticed the oil vapor coming out of the filler cap on my new crd and knew I needed to act. Even to the extent of open venting in the short term. I've not read the TDI club in a while (son has my 99.5 jetta now) but are there any GTG around central Ohio?

Joe[/quote]

Yes I know it isn't just DC, I guess the part that tics me off is all these auto manufactures know of such problems, but we always get stuck trying to fix their poor designs. Think I am going with the open vent until I get something better to install. Hate to see the intake get oiled any more than it already is.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed May 24, 2006 7:31 am

Me too. (open vent) But the real problem was caused by the EPA. If they would have waited on ULS in the US before the engine makers had to add EGR I really think the problem would never have been. But I could be wrong :?:

Or if the oil companies would have acted responsably and removed the sulpher voluntairly :shock:

Is that a joke :?:

CCV oil problem & oil wt.

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