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Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89219		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  MotorCity05CRD [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
I have a 2005 Liberty CRD with about 150,000 miles on it. The previous owner replaced the timing belt at 100,000 miles, but not the water pump or idler pulleys. The water pump failed.

As part of this repair I am also eliminiating the EGR setup and setting up an inline filter for the CCV system. In the course of this I realized that not only was the FCV and inlet snorkle crusted, but the intake is even worse. I cannot see reassembling the whole thing and not cleaning it out which requires intake removal.

I have disassembled the front of engine and unfortunately already installed the belt and covers before realizing how bad the intake was crusted. I know it has to come back apart. I wish I'd realized this sooner.

I have seen much in the forums about rocker arm failure. My understanding is that the pins the rockers pivot on wear out prematurely and then fail catastrophically. Since the cover is coming off I plan to change them all. But, I haven't seen much about the lifters failing.

My question is this: Do the lifters fail prematurely or is it just the rockers?

A set of rocker/lifters is $369 from ID Parts. I can get just the rockers from a reliable U.S manufacturer for $203. I'm willing to spend the extra, but if the lifters have proven themselves reliable I would rather not. I know it would be best, but I have to stop at some point and thus far I have over $800 into this repair (including a rack assmbly and ABS sensors, fan clutch etc.).

Anybody heard of lifters being unreliable?

Thanks!!
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
Based on my observation, they do fail. usually as a result of poor maintenance. So if your roller cam followers have worn out, it's a good bet to replace the hydraulic adjusters as well. The water pump issue is proof of the PO(s) terrible (bare minimum) approach to maintenance. Are you really going to continue this neglectful approach to maintenance? If so, count on more catastrophic failures.
Author:  Grotsoldaat [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
Yep, belt change without replacing pulleys and water pump tells about either total ignorance or unconsciousness about service related issues, so better over-check things than loose the ghost in a middle of nowhere at dark and stormy night.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
I think any damaged lifters I have seen have been the result of bad rockers.

Awhile back rockers were available without lifters, I did several repairs back around 2010 with these rocker only kits, sometimes replacing 1-2 lifters.

Those jeeps never had any weird lifter noise after, and the only owner I am still in contact with has has no further issues since then.

that said these days ID parts has the rocker/lifter combo very reasonably priced, so there is no reason to replace the rocker only when the lifters come with.
Author:  TKB4 [ Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
The old style lifter has a crimped on cap that has a higher risk for failure and separation. The shape of the new style lifter may or may not have any effect on oiling also. That said I don't recall a lifter failure but the crimp bothers me a lot. I would replace both.
Author:  MotorCity05CRD [ Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
Thanks to everybody for your responses! I really appreciate your weighing in with your expertise.

I'm the second owner of this vehicle. My impression of the first owners is that they were very concientious about mainenance. The Jeep came with a complete set of records showing that every little thing that was specified in the manual was done on time. I think the water pump issue was more a function of them not being car people and when it said "timing belt" that's exactly what they did, but they did it at exactly 100,000 miles.

It's disheartening for me to think that I own a diesel engine for which not replacing lifters prophylactically at 150,000 miles would be considered a "neglectful approach to maintenance".

I think it's smart to replace the rockers, as they have a charactoristic weakness in design. I hadn't heard much about the lifters and a flawed rocker design doesn't equal flawed lifters. I figured as long as they last as long as the crank bearings, that's good enough for me.

When I got the intake off I did find that all of the rockers have concetric wear around the pin. I also found that the crimp TKB4 mentioned had failed on one lifter and it seperated when lifting it from it's bore. So, I'll be replacing both rockers and lifters.

NOW I am looking at the engine and thinking "hmmm, that head gasket would be fairly easy at this point..."

Thanks Again
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
More friendly advise.
While you have the intake off and replacing rockers/lifters, it is a very good opportunity to be preemptive and replace the head bolts with ARP head studs.
IF the head gasket is not presently leaking, there is no need to disturb it, simply replacing the factory head bolts with studs will help insure preventions of future head gasket leakage.
IDParts and Sasquatch both offer sets of the studs.

This can be done one at a time without pulling or disturbing the head.
There are several good write ups on this operation on LOST if you do a search. :D
Author:  rancherman [ Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
I had a situation, where my timing belt jumped at about 90k... which promptly wiped out all the exhaust rockers.
The rollers seemed perfect, although at the time I didn't have a new one to compare it with.
So I got just the rockers.
For about 150 bucks, I got all 16 shipped to my door from England.
Honestly, I couldn't tell any difference in roller wear from the used broken ones, and the new ones.

I would think if the rollers are good, then the lifter part 'should' be similar too. I'd bet if the roller is sloppy, then the ball stud coming out of the lifter may too be sporting 'flat spots'...
Wrong oil, too long interval...

I don't recall any posts dealing with 'collapsed lifters'...or lifters that fail to pump up. Not saying it hasn't happened, I just think it's a rare thing.
I HAVE heard about the crimp/cap of the lifter blowing/pushing out. I suspect this happens when a rocker arm breaks, and there is a lot of free play on that rocker. Nothing to push back against the force of oil in the gallery. They basically rattle to pieces as the engine dies from broken rockers.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
On this engine, technically they are not lifters per say, but only hydraulic dampers to cushion and dampen the movement of the rocker arm and to maintain constant contact with the rocker arms rollers' against the lobes of the camshaft as it operated by the rotation of the cam lobes.
As long as the damper is not physically damaged in some way and has not collapsed internally or will not pump up when oil pressure is applied, they should be good for reuse. :)
Author:  rancherman [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
WWDiesel wrote:
On this engine, technically they are not lifters per say, but only hydraulic dampers to cushion and dampen the movement of the rocker arm and to maintain constant contact with the rocker arms rollers' against the lobes of the camshaft as it operated by the rotation of the cam lobes.
As long as the damper is not physically damaged in some way and has not collapsed internally or will not pump up when oil pressure is applied, they should be good for reuse. :)



yah, 'lash adjuster' is probably a better term!!
They still have an internal spring, and it's own internal piston is modulated with tiny hole/slots for oil to fill or escape at a prescribed rate.. 8)
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
Quote:
yah, 'lash adjuster' is probably a better term!!

:BINGO:
They don’t “lift” anything.
This is not a cam-in-block engine.

Typically what happens is that the roller bearings wear down, increasing valve lash, and causing hammering on the lash adjuster, causing it to break.
Author:  rancherman [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
flash7210 wrote:
Quote:
yah, 'lash adjuster' is probably a better term!!

:BINGO:
They don’t “lift” anything.
This is not a cam-in-block engine.

Typically what happens is that the roller bearings wear down, increasing valve lash, and causing hammering on the lash adjuster, causing it to break.


I noticed the amount of 'take up' isn't very much!! I got maybe just under a 1/16th inch of travel.. a worn roller could
out-run the amount of adjustment pretty quick!
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective

Really, you wanna argue about lifter vs lasher adjuster?
Author:  rancherman [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Replace Rockers without Replacing Lifters?
Sir Sam wrote:
pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective

Really, you wanna argue about lifter vs lasher adjuster?


There is no way to answer this without devolving this thread any further.
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