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Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
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Author:  Rrusse11 [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Hiya folks,
Recently acquired a very clean "05 Liberty CRD, drives and runs great, high mileage at 246k.
Transmission was remanned recently by the PO (previous owner), but for reasons unknown,
he didn't upgrade the TC. Researching options here, should I spend nearly twice the money for
the Suncoast, or go with the Euro from idparts?
A tune is in the works, PO has a provent installed and an EGR bypass. There's a Creader reader plugged
in that deletes the CEL that pops up, he's simply unplugged the MAF. Thoughts on this? Or should I
block off the EGR? Or totally remove?
Cheers!
Author:  geordi [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Physical block to the EGR is the only way to ensure that it is truly sealed, the electronic methods don't account for the potential that it fails partly closed when it dies.

But with that mileage.... You may want to think about doing a valve job as soon as absolutely possible. These have a risk that starts around 160k miles (some have been lower than that!) but is more at risk above 200k that one of the exhaust valves will let go. This can happen without warning and is caused by metal fatigue in the alloy, from high cylinder temperatures from running a rich air/fuel mix. Diesels are a lean burn engine and when the EGR is active (VERY glad it isn't), the fuel mix is made more rich and the cylinder temperature can skyrocket. Very expensive testing was done and the results showed that at temperatures above about 1200 degrees, the metal structure can actually change and the molecules can increase in size, weakening the overall structure. This is why they fail.

If you need assistance with this process, I'm the traveling CRD tech. This is the ONLY vehicle I work on, and I've seen more than 100 of them now. I've done about 40 valve jobs now, and my Level 3 service includes ALL of the available upgrades for the engine. It isn't cheap, but it WILL bulletproof the engine for the next 200k+ miles.

On your other question about the converter, the Suncoast is great, the Euro is "just OK" and the minimum I would consider. A good midrange option is from Florida Torque Converter and is about $550 IIRC. I'm running one of those right now and pretty happy with it, but the next time I do a transmission service I think I'm going to also do a shift kit and some other mods to the transmission.
Author:  Mountainman [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Here's the dirty secret that noone talks about concerning torque converters on this site.
After testing many CRD's with stock and upgraded torque converters I have found the following:

Numbers are approximate
-Euro = about 20% chance that you'll have to upgrade the transmission.
-Suncoast, or hemi = 80% chance or so that you'll have to upgrade the transmission.
-Adding a tune= 80% chance you'll have to upgrade the transmission.
-Big tires also increase the chance of shudder and a required upgrade.
It's all about line pressure and torque on the TC. upgrading the transmission is too expensive for many owners ($1,000+). I wouldnt touch the transmission if you have no shudder as is, unless you just happen to have access to the TC. And, if you put in a more aggressive TC (suncoast, hemi, etc) then you will definitely want to do the upgrades while you're in there unless you dont mind pulling it again. You can just slide the transmission back slightly and slip a new TC in there, but beware of the engine fan hitting the radiator when tipping the engine and transmission down (remove fan first, thanks GDE!).

Upgrading the transmission = new pump from ID parts and the upgrades to the new pump.
All other upgrades can be skipped, but it's a good idea to install the upgraded plate in the valve body which comes in the shift kit. I'm not an advocate of the rest of the shift kit as it increases wear on the engine and transmission mounts, and on the entire drive train. Sure, it will help the clutches in the transmission last a little longer, at the expense of the rest of the drivetrain. Good for racing though...
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
As to the EGR; the very best solution is to totally *remove the EGR valve and FCV (flow control valve) and the EGR Cooler and its' associated coolant lines.
If you cannot do this, then you should install a metal block off plate in the exhaust feed to the EGR Valve.
NO tune can prevent total elimination of EGR valve leakby or the valve sticking open mechanically. Only a block off plate or total elimination of the system can guarantee no EGR soot entering into the engine intake.
Total EGR elimation kits are still available on eBay currently at:> https://www.ebay.com/itm/EGR-FCV-Delete ... Sw-89ZSw6t See Picture Below:

*Note: Totally removing the EGR Valve and FCV will require the reflash of the ECM to prevent DTC's (check engine light) There are some free DTY tunes on this forum for this purpose or you can contact Yeti on this forum by PM or email and he can provide you with a custom tune for your vehicle. If you install one of the tunes with increased HP & higher torque output you certainly will need a better torque converter which will be covered in the following paragraph

As to Torque Converters; lots of opinions on this subject. But Mountainman is correct, if your going to go to expense to drop the transmission to replace or upgrade the torque converter then there are some other things that are almost a must do at the same time to prevent having future problems.
Myself and quite a few others have installed and recommend a much better torque converter like the SunCoast TC or the Florida TC, along with replacing the front oil pump assembly with the new upgraded style pump assembly in the transmission along with adding a TransGo Shift Kit all at the same time while the transmission is out of the vehicle. Provided your transmission is in fairly good shape, adding a SunCoast TC, Front Pump, and TransGo Kit will pretty much bullet proof the transmission provided it has no other pre existing conditions. Transmission Fluid and filters should be changed at this same time using only ATF+4 transmission fluid and new Mopar transmission filters. Cheap filters are NOT recommended as they can cause issues.
Some have installed the Dodge Hemi Truck torque converter with varied success.
(Note: there are 2 fluid filters inside this transmission)

Image
Author:  Mountainman [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
The two important springs that must be upgraded in the new front pump are the:

1.) Sonnax Line Pressure Booster Spring

2.)Sonnax TC Accumulator Valve Spring

Or

the TransGo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming Kit comes with a tri-spring TC Accumulator Valve spring replacement.

You may also want to add the sonax line booster, which the sonnax kit includes the #2 spring in the list.

*do not install the resistor that comes with the shift kit, and all bets are off if you try to save money and buy a front pump from elsewhere, as it may be pre- upgraded valve bore. Although a good shop knows to ream and sleeve to fix this problem...
Author:  TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
FOLLOWING...
Author:  Rrusse11 [ Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Thanks all for the quick replies, and the wealth of information with included details!
I'm thinking along the lines of a mild Eco tune, and higher shifting points for the tranny. It's making plenty of power for my purposes as is. I'm learning to shift the auto tranny as a matter of course. Neutral at the lights, 2nd around town, OD off till you hit 60 and the hwy, motor's much happier. Run out to high 3krpm to clean up the turbo every now and then.

I've got a modded "02 Golf TDI that's ~ the same power, 160hp/300'#s. I'm well aware of the dangers of going too far, stuff starts to break! The Jeep is intended as a sedate tow vehicle, nothing over 3000#s. We're planning on a small camper, and every now and then, the 2500# sailboat.

I'll procede with a blockoff plate for the EGR, and speak to Yeti about the CEL delete.
Front brakes and a new set of tires already done, got the parts for the rears, I want the parking brake to work! No plans for any kind of lifting, or serious offroading.

Timing belt was done 33k and 4 1/2 years ago, the one owner, an engineer, was part of these forums. So I feel I don't have to worry about that, he's got all the receipts for the work done. I'll have to give him a ring and find out what his handle was/is.

I've emailed you geordi about a valve job and what that entails.

Cheers gents! And thanks again, frankly I thought this forum looked a bit of a graveyard, at least compared to the TDIclub. Good to know there are people paying attention. {:o)

PS. The lights on the dash don't show when I'm in part time, full, or Lo 4WD, guessing here that my transfer case switch is stuck shut?
Author:  TKB4 [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Agree with above posts and glad to have an enthusiastic new member. The valves are a ticking time bomb . Ask me how I know. Sounds like IRUNMILES vehicle found a new owner. Welcome !!
Author:  Mountainman [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
I forgot to mention that all of the TC's will last, even the stock unit, IF you don't tune the engine. Sure, a few OEM TC's have failed with the neutered programming, but it's rare.
I've run Florida (billet, standard, hemi), hemi, suncoast, euro, and OEM. They will all shudder badly without an upgraded transmission if you put enough load on them.

Like it was mentioned above: if you put severe strain on them, then get a suncoast or other billet tc.
Author:  Rrusse11 [ Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
"I forgot to mention that all of the TC's will last, even the stock unit,"

Thanks! Now that I feel a bit more in control of the issue, hasn't happened since I found the OD switch.
I'll have to find out how it handles towing.
Author:  user113 [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
I did the GDE Hot Tune on my Jeep back in 2011, and my stock TC started to shudder about 6 months later. I had my valve body reworked by a local tranny guru (at least equivalent to the TransGo kit), and replaced the TC with one of the Euro jobs. No problems whatever after 80,000 miles. I don't know how the SunCoast TC drives, but the Euro TC is very smooth.

P.S., I had Geordi over to do my timing belt back in 2013; I have no problems recommending his assistance.
Author:  Rrusse11 [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
user113 wrote:
I did the GDE Hot Tune on my Jeep back in 2011, and my stock TC started to shudder about 6 months later. I had my valve body reworked by a local tranny guru (at least equivalent to the TransGo kit), and replaced the TC with one of the Euro jobs. No problems whatever after 80,000 miles. I don't know how the SunCoast TC drives, but the Euro TC is very smooth.

P.S., I had Geordi over to do my timing belt back in 2013; I have no problems recommending his assistance.


Thanks user113 for the feedback on the "Euro". I found a similarly priced option here. From all reports the Florida is good as well, and comparable to the Suncoast.

https://www.floridatorqueconverters.com ... 45RFE.html

What I really really want is the european 6spd manual gearbox.
Author:  layback40 [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Rrusse11 wrote:


What I really really want is the european 6spd manual gearbox.[/color][/size]



We have the 6 speed in Australia.
Its not the strongest box.
Over here when they fail people tend to replace it with the 5 speed that we got in the XJ diesel.
The 6 speed manual KJ CRD has a detune ex the factory to avoid blowing the box.
Author:  Rrusse11 [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
layback40 wrote:
Rrusse11 wrote:


What I really really want is the european 6spd manual gearbox.[/color][/size]



We have the 6 speed in Australia.
Its not the strongest box.
Over here when they fail people tend to replace it with the 5 speed that we got in the XJ diesel.
The 6 speed manual KJ CRD has a detune ex the factory to avoid blowing the box.


Ahhh, thank you! Would you happen to have a part # for it? Clutch recommendations?
Cheers!
Author:  TKB4 [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
First I put the Euro TC in one of my jeeps and it has functioned well but it doesn't give me a lot of confidence. The main difference is just stronger springs to hold it in lockup from what I understand and it still has other parts that are potentially weak. I made the decision to use the Euro in one and the Hemi in 2 because I planned on doing multiple vehicles and at that time the price was about $400 more for the Suncoast, Florida had barely been mentioned at the time but was reasonably priced at the time and if I had done mine a year later I would probably have gone with it. You still can't go wrong with Suncoast.

If I were replacing my one and only CRD now it would be the Suncoast but If I had a little smaller budget I would not hesitate going with the Florida unit ,however in my spirit of trying different things I think I would try the one that My 66 Dodge recommends from Precision Converters of new Hampshire the 5450LSRV depending on the price which he says is about half of the others. Florida was very inexpensive when I first looked at them but I think they have risen significantly since then. The link that was given to the company for the 5450LSRV is :
http://www.gopnh.com/
They apparently also offer a billet one.

I think its worth real consideration.
Author:  Rrusse11 [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Thanks TKB4,
I'm leaning to the Florida, only $100 more than the idparts "Euro". Two versions of their SD (super duty?), one with a billet cover. Not sure if that offers any significant improvement.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
Life is about choices, make your best one! Pay now or pay later; sometimes it is better to suffer the pain and do it right the first time. It will be cheaper in the long run!
I am speaking from experience with three highly rated torque converters I went through in my Dodge Cummins before biting the bullet and spending $1800 for a SunCoast, the other two only lasted just long enough to get past the warranty period and then started slipping in lockup. Trying to save money cost me three times as much if I had only done it right the first time. Live and learn, sometimes the hard way. :banghead: :dizzy:
I only offer some friendly advice based on experience as to not make a high $ mistake.

Question heavily whomever you plan to purchase your TC from as to construction, max torque ratings, warranty, etc....

"Billet" refers to the clutch plate drive surface (flywheel). It is the part that bolts to engines flex plate.
Billet offers much better heat dissipation so hot spots are not created or warpage does not occur, a much better clutch surface area that has less run out compared to a OEM steel stamping and the ability not to flex when clutches are applied. The greater mass of a billet TC also helps smooth out some of the pulsations of the diesel engine at idle.

You may find cheaper torque converters with billet covers but even though it has a billet cover it still can still have weak stock internals and poor construction. Price is based on construction! Cheap will usually be, single disk, stock stall speed along with phenolic or fibre washers and folded over fin construction. Some may have improved clutch materials, some may not.
The higher priced converters will use Torrington needle bearings over washers, fully welded construction including all fins, and lower stall speed, and multi disk friction clutches from a high quality supplier made out of materials like Kevlar.
Really high end converters like the SunCoast will have all the above plus a larger diameter clutch surface area and some proprietary parts they keep to themselves.

These are the published torque ratings:
Stock Mopar OEM TC is rated for 300 ft. lbs. max (406 Nm)
Mopar Euro TC is rated for 400 ft. lbs. max (~ 542 Nm)
Hemi TC is rated for? Anyone got a rating, please share.
Suncoast CRD-1ES TC is rated for 600 ft. lbs. max (813 Nm)
Author:  PZKW108 [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
WWDiesel wrote:
Life is about choices, make your best one! Pay now or pay later; sometimes it is better to suffer the pain and do it right the first time. It will be cheaper in the long run!
I am speaking from experience with three highly rated torque converters I went through in my Dodge Cummins before biting the bullet and spending $1800 for a SunCoast, the other two only lasted just long enough to get past the warranty period and then started slipping in lockup. Trying to save money cost me three times as much if I had only done it right the first time. Live and learn, sometimes the hard way. :banghead: :dizzy:
I only offer some friendly advice based on experience as to not make a high $ mistake.

Question heavily whomever you plan to purchase your TC from as to construction, max torque ratings, warranty, etc....

"Billet" refers to the clutch plate drive surface (flywheel). It is the part that bolts to engines flex plate.
Billet offers much better heat dissipation so hot spots are not created or warpage does not occur, a much better clutch surface area that has less run out compared to a OEM steel stamping and the ability not to flex when clutches are applied. The greater mass of a billet TC also helps smooth out some of the pulsations of the diesel engine at idle.

You may find cheaper torque converters with billet covers but even though it has a billet cover it still can still have weak stock internals and poor construction. Price is based on construction! Cheap will usually be, single disk, stock stall speed along with phenolic or fibre washers and folded over fin construction. Some may have improved clutch materials, some may not.
The higher priced converters will use Torrington needle bearings over washers, fully welded construction including all fins, and lower stall speed, and multi disk friction clutches from a high quality supplier made out of materials like Kevlar.
Really high end converters like the SunCoast will have all the above plus a larger diameter clutch surface area and some proprietary parts they keep to themselves.

These are the published torque ratings:
Stock Mopar OEM TC is rated for 300 ft. lbs. max (406 Nm)
Mopar Euro TC is rated for 400 ft. lbs. max (~ 542 Nm)
Hemi TC is rated for? Anyone got a rating, please share.
Suncoast CRD-1ES TC is rated for 600 ft. lbs. max (813 Nm)



The problem with the "Hemi TC"

If you look at the Mopar website they list 76 TC that will fit the Dodge Ram 1500, all the trucks don't necessarily have the 5.7l Hemi in it but most of the time the TC will fit 4.7l and 5.7l.

Might be one of the reason why the reviews on the "Hemi TC" are mixed !!!!!
Author:  geordi [ Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
WWDiesel wrote:
These are the published torque ratings:
Stock Mopar OEM TC is rated for 300 ft. lbs. max (406 Nm)
Mopar Euro TC is rated for 400 ft. lbs. max (~ 542 Nm)
Hemi TC is rated for? Anyone got a rating, please share.
Suncoast CRD-1ES TC is rated for 600 ft. lbs. max (813 Nm)


I believe the stock was rated at 330 lb-ft, but at a ridiculous 3k RPM which is why the engine can overpower it - at lower RPM, the torque limit is also lower.
The Hemi is (again IIRC) 350 lb-ft and also again at like 3k RPM. Better, but still close to the ragged edge.
It actually may be that the Euro is 350 and the Hemi is 400... I'm a bit fuzzy on that, are you certain of the Euro's rating?

The best upgrade is a lower stall overall. I wish I had known about the spring upgrades for the pump before I put the transmission in with that new pump...
Author:  TKB4 [ Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Euro vs Suncoast Torque Converter
to be clear the CRD I drive with a Hemi and 32 inch tires and GDE hot tune and towing yp to 3,000 lbs does not shudder even at 60 mph lockup and later when I added the GDE ecotune trans tune it had no shudder in top gear lockup down to wherever it drops lockout around 50 mph . In fact I never had it shudder even once.

The one my son drives has Old man emu lift and 31.4 inch tires and GDE Turbo with the Hemi and he says he occasionally has shudder but his front pump may be problem and he definitely has the low pressure at startup problem still. None of the three TCs I replaced had the front pumps changed or upgraded. I used the Hemi TC listed for the 5.7 Hemi I could probably find the part number but would take a while . I think I got mine from Rockauto for about $180. Another one I have had had a different trans put in and it had no shudder,dont know what TC it has. The problem my son rarely has may well be the pump and not the converter

I am pretty sure the Hemi TC I used was rated at 450 to 500lbs but only thing I found just now is that the Hemi 5.7 engine it is used in is rated at 400ft lbs and 407 ft lbs depending on the year.
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