P0101 MAF/VAF Circuit Range/Performance

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:01 pm

Well, the bloody thing finally threw a CEL on it's own today (without any help from my choice of fuel stations this time). CEL came on and stayed on about halfway to town, stayed on after making one stop. Swung by Advance, stored two codes, both instances P0101 MAF/VAF Circuit Range/Performance. At least it wasn't the #$@%^& EGR!

Still using stock OEM air filter with 3500 miles on it. Checked the CAC inlet hose yesterday, getting some oil streaks in there again after a few thousand miles. Along that line, I changed oil today and put in the Fumoto valve. Good thing I got some spare oil plug washers, stupid tech that did the last oil change didn't put one back on the original drain plug, cranked it down and nearly buggered up the threads! :shock:

Even with the Fumoto installed, that's the last time that young man is doing an oil change on MY vehicle!

Went with just 6 1/2 quarts this time, about 1/8th below max but still well above minimum.

To test it out and see if it would make any difference in oil in the intake and MPG, at NAPA I picked up some Amsoil 15W40 Diesel Synthetic. With summer temps around here running well into the 90's, it would be a good time to run a 3K mile test on it and see how it does, then in 3 to 4 months when it's due again switch back to 5W40 for cold weather.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:32 am

Well, got the beast into one of the local dealers today to check out the CEL and P0101 MAF trouble code it threw.

Appointment was for 2 PM, I got it there at 1:30 and checked it in. told them I would wait since Freightliner is closed down this week because of a supplier on strike.

At 4 PM I finally see the beast being pulled into a service bay. Since it was an open area with a parking lot, I meanedered to the entrance of the bay to watch and listen in. I got there just as the tech was getting out of the CRD. Just in time to hear him make some rather derogatory comment concerning the intelligence of the person who dared list the DTC code on the work order and that MAF sensors never went bad.

After hooking up the scanner inside the vehicle and checking the codes, he didn't have much to say. After half a minute inside the vehicle he got out and checked the computer readout at his workstation. Then he popped the hood and looked underneath for another half minute. He then grabbed the work order and headed for the parts counter. After 3 or so minutes there, he came back to the vehicle, put the work order on his desk, and then headed off to a meeting I had heard the dealership staff discussing.

I wnet back inside to the waiting area for 15 or so minutes, until I noticed that the staff was milling about, their meeting being over. I saw the tech that had been working on my vehicle munching down a bag of popcorn, then head back out to the service bay. I followed along.

When I got outside, my CRD was gone and there was another vehicle in the bay. The tech had apparently decided he was finished with it BEFORE the meeting and had someone move it while in their meeting.

I wandered around for another 5 or so minutes, by now it was going on 5 PM. About this time, one of the service writers found me. The guy that had been assigned to me didn't bother to show up today and no one offered any explanation why.

The service writer then explained to me what the service writer had diagnosed on my vehicle. You're gonna love this one -

"The reason the CEL is on and throwing the MAF sensor code is because you installed that air restriction thing" (Filterminder air filter restriction indicator) "in your air filter housing and that's causing the MAF sensor to malfunction. (My captials) WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REPLACE THE UPPER AIR FILTER HOUSING TO FIX THE PROBLEM, IT'LL TAKE A WEEK TO GET A NEW ONE, AND IT'S GOING TO COST YOU $160."

I said "So you're saying that the air filter restriction gauge, installed in the air filter housing, upstream of the MAF sensor, is causing the problem? That's strange, because it's been in there for nearly 3000 miles and never caused any problems up to now." (his eyes widened and his jaw dropped, the look on his face as if he'd been caught in a lie) "If that is causing the problem, why not just remove the gauge and plug the hole?" (another panicked look on his face, he really didn't know what he was into)

From the service writer - "No, the tech says it's messed up and the only way to fix it is to replace the upper air filter housing. Do you want me to go ahead and order it?"

So far this guy hadn't bothered to show me the work order. But while we were talking and he was waving it around, I managed to sneek a quick glance. Handwritten on the bottom of the order was a part number I couldn't entirely make out, but I did make out the price of "$50.63" written below it. Quite a bit of difference from the $160 this yahoo had just quoted me.

For the heck of it I said, yeah, let's go ahead and order it. And yeah, like it's going to be a cold day down below if I ever bother to go back and pick it up. I'll let these con artists deal with having it stuck in their inventory, and deal with explaining to DC about why they eventually have to return it to the system. In the meantime, I'm going back to my purchasing dealership, to get a second opinion and hopefully the vehicle fixed, even though it's a 60 mile round trip.

Then the service writer pulled up my vehicle, left it running assuming I was in a hurry to get out of there, and THEN asked if I'd like a copy of the service order. I reached in and killed the engine, and then told him yes, I would like a copy, and I'll wait. (another panic attack) Suddenly there didn't seem to be a working copy machine anywhere in the dealership.

From the service writer - "I can't get to a copy machine right now, let's go ahead and get the part ordered then I'll get you a copy."

When we got to the parts desk, he told the parts guy that he needed that part ordered, and I noticed a odd look pass between them, then the parts guy gave me an odd look, then back at the work order. He rattled off something about not being able to read the part number and needing to verify it, and that the tech that did the work should have placed the parts order, and he disappeared off to the service bay.

10 minutes went by, and the parts guy hadn't come back. I decided I'd played along with their game long enough. I told the service writer "Look, I don't really need a copy, just go ahead and order the part and get ahold of me when it gets in." (look of utter relief on his face)

Once I got outside, I had a big grin on my face, and it was all I could do to keep from busting out laughing. To anyone with some honest mechanical knowledge and experience, it was pathetically obvious and transparent what they were trying to pull. I just got in the CRD and drove home.

Once home, I called my purchasing dealership. The service dept was already closed, but one of the techs still happened to be around. After I explained to him about the MAF trouble code, and what these guys claimed to have caused it and the required fix, the first words out of his mouth were "Are you kidding me?" As I related the rest of the story to him, the poor guy was literally laughing his a## off on the other end. "Yeah, I've heard stories about those guys, but I didn't know they were THAT bad!" was his final comment. He said sure, call up the service dept when they open in the morning, and they'd find out what's really going on with the vehicle.

I called up my friend in Texas, figuring he could use a good laugh. After I gave him their diagnosis of what caused the DTC, his comment was "That's the most f#####g bulls##t explanation I've ever heard."

And just for good measure, I removed the Filterminder and plugged the hole, PLUS removed the filter element from the Provent for good measure. I then put the beast thru 4 startup cycles, 3 "good" cycles supposedly being the trick to making a CEL go away according to the FSM. Guess what? CEL is on solid, and I'll bet money I know what code it's still throwing.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:04 am

retmil46 wrote:

Just in time to hear him make some rather derogatory comment concerning the intelligence of the person who dared list the DTC code on the work order and that MAF sensors never went bad.

Well, try being the person who dares to give a TSB number (18-009-06). Had a feeling things were going to go badly when told "we will tell you what TSB's apply to your Jeep." Probably just me but don't have any desire to stand and argue with someone with their name embroidered on their shirt. At least the Service Manager had enough nerve to appologize after they botched it and I took it back to be redone.

What's suprising is they didn't blame it on your extra fuel filter too.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:49 am

Man I sure would be hunting a better dealership if I were you guys. The MAF failure causes no drivability problems like it would in the VW & MB cars so we are lucky that way. Our CEL finally turned itself off after about week, and just kept the code stored. I cleared the code once before the light went off and it came back on, then finally went off and stayed off while we were out of town on road trip.

This happened just before were were to leave on a road trip north in the winter and tech said we could drive it without a problem, and when we got back from trip it took about a week for them to get us in for the repair. They were in no hurry as neither was I and they had gotten back up in the shop and ask if they could put us off a few days, which I said was no problem. Anyway we got got about 27 or 28 mpg on that trip with the CEL on and less then 1000 miles on the Jeep.

I was at the dealership last week and was telling the head diesel tech about the CCV filter I was testing and let him look at it, he said he hoped it worked as all CRD's needed something like that from the factory. He ask me if it didn't work what would I be doing about the oil in the intercooler and hoses, I told him I would like a Provent filter (he knows what they are) but there is not enough room under the hood, so I would probably do the drip hose mod. He smilled and said one of those two would be the very first thing he would do to the CRD if he had one or could tell new owners. He's waiting for all the CRD's they have sold to start showing up with problems caused by the oil in the IC system and is not real happy about it because as with most warranty work he will loose money from not being paid enough time for the job.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:14 am

oldnavy wrote:

Man I sure would be hunting a better dealership if I were you guys.

That thought has crossed my mind. Up until now there has been a lot of finger pointing between DC and the dealer. Monday morning that should change when I have both parties in the same room and hopefully get some answers. Trying to work it out here as I already know the other dealers in the area don't like the CRD for one reason or another.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:56 am

Yep, this place wasn't my first choice as far as taking it in for service. But since we were supposedly on day-to-day notice at the time for being called back in to work, with updates on our status only 2 hours before our shift start time, and my dealership of choice being an hour and a half round trip away, well.....

That plus the fact I read the previous thread oldnavy posted about his and knew it wouldn't pose any driveability problems, so if they did try to feed me a line of bull (which they did), I wouldn't have a problem walking away from the situation and taking it somewhere else. Heck, the bloody thing actually seems to be getting BETTER mpg around town since throwing the code and the MAF supposedly FUBAR.

If there isn't any calibration or programming involved, just replace the sensor and plug it in, I'm tempted to just go ahead and order one on my own dime and replace it, just to be done with all the B.S.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:02 am

Nope, no cal required and I not sure but I think it will auto clear the code when new part is plugged back in to system.

Man I sure feel for you guys, I would probably be in jail if I ever got that kind of treatment at a dealership. MO is a right to carrry state.

I often do carry a gun in car, but usually I carry a pump 20 ga so as not to be tempted to be shooting at stupid drivers. I had always thought that Tidewater area was bad, these drivers here are just amazing on a daily basis and put Tidewater area to shame for lousy drivers.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:45 am

Yes, it should auto clear if I'm reading the FSM right.

I'm out the door on my way over to my purchasing dealership. Called their parts dept yesterday. According to them, you can order the MAF sensor separately, $90, but it needs to be prepaid. I'm going to go ahead and order it on my dime, so hopefully it'll be there by this coming Wednesday when I let them have a crack at diagnosing it. If it is covered by warranty, I can get reimbursed, or if they take the same line (installing the air filter indicator caused the problem), either way I'll have the part on hand and we can get the problem fixed.

Anyway, $90 for the sensor itself sounds a lot better than that BS about having to order a whole new top for the air filter housing for $160.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:19 am

Mitch I would use your card for the D/C employee discount as the part could have as much as 70% mark up.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:32 pm

Well, got the new MAF sensor ordered yesterday. FYI, if you have to order a replacement sensor, they're all listed under the electrical section in their parts catalog, not under the system they're installed in.

Just for the heck of it, I asked him to look up what a new air filter housing cover would cost. Turns out it's 43 bucks and change. I made the comment "Gee, Lake Norman CJD told me it cost 160 bucks!". The look on the guy's face was priceless. :lol:

I explained to him why I was ordering one on my dime, so it would be there in time for a service appointment on Wednesday.

This guy was one of their older mechanics, pulling Saturday duty for the parts desk. He understood diesels and knew what an air filter restriction indicator was. When I related the BS story I'd gotten from the other dealership, I again got the priceless look, then he cracked a smile and his body commenced to shake up and down as he started laughing to himself, and made the comment "Man, what a load of crap!". :lol:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:45 am

Well, when I took it in Wednesday to the dealer I purchased it from, it was throwing two additional codes besides the MAF - 0104 and 0299.

Yep, 11800 miles, and the EGR has bit the dust. MAF is probably OK, I'd wager it threw the code because the EGR was on the way out.

Dropped it off this morning at the dealer, so they can perform all the work when the parts arrive. I did give them a heads up, that they might want to confer with DC and see if they need to get an air flow control valve as well.

MPG hasn't seemed to take a hit, but accel from a standing start has, as well as pulling a hill. And the beast throws a huge cloud of black smoke when starting off. I've already had a couple of people, that already knew I drove a diesel, ask me if there was something wrong with it, because as they put it "it's never smoked before when I was behind it, and now it's throwing smoke like an old semi".

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

RetMil46 - how did the egr replacement work out? Since I'm now on my 2nd egr replacement, I'm interested in what the current availability is on egr valves. They're still working on mine.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:37 am

Haven't got any word back yet. Friday morning they said the parts might be in that afternoon. Since I have the old beater Subaru to drive, I just dropped it off so once they got the parts they could get started.

This dealership is straight up, if I haven't gotten a call yet it means two things - they haven't finished yet, and they haven't run into any unexpected snags or other problems on the vehicle.

Besides, I've told them often enough "I'd rather have it done right than done quick".

An old MB is looking better and better all the time.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Yesterday I received a call from Abernathy Jeep in Lincolnton N.C. My jeep was fixed. This problem ticket was for 2 quarts oil usage in 350 miles, codes P0234, P0102, P0401 and P1189 and limp in mode.

Their fix - ***NOTHING*** - other than to get black grease on my white leather passenger front seat that is, so I know someone at least sat in it. Their work order states that all of the codes were present, but they could find nothing wrong. They say they updated the PCM with TSB 18-007-05, which came out a year ago and is only for vehicles built before February 13, 2005. My build date is March 1, 2005. TSB 18-007-05 states a PCM sticker with the update is required by Federal law - no sticker on the PCM or anywhere else. Also, the last time a PCM flash was done on my vehicle at a different dealership, the tech showed me the system checking the PCM/TCM while online, and it won't flash update a TSB fix that is already applied. It reads everything about your PCM/TCM with lots of software versions recorded. These guys at Abernathy are classic examples of why customers dread auto repairs.

So I asked the SA what his explanation is for the excessive oil usage, and the other codes, and why a TSB for a build date that doesn't apply to my Jeep. His answer - "the oil usage is troubling. Sometimes putting an older TSB fixes things. We cleared the codes and they didn't come back. If the codes come back, bring it back in."

Oh yes, thanks DCX for building a great support infrastructure for your "test market" diesel vehicles. I'm sure this dealer network of diesel certified is now ready to provide the same sterling support for your new Grand Cherokee diesels.

All the way home, huge black clouds of smoke boiling out the exhaust. Sometimes some blue smoke. Pretty clear they didn't want to work on it and cleared the codes. Nice job guys. I would rather they had just told me not to bring it in.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:49 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Yesterday I received a call from Abernathy Jeep in Lincolnton N.C. My jeep was fixed. This problem ticket was for 2 quarts oil usage in 350 miles, codes P0234, P0102, P0401 and P1189 and limp in mode.

Their fix - ***NOTHING*** - other than to get black grease on my white leather passenger front seat that is, so I know someone at least sat in it. Their work order states that all of the codes were present, but they could find nothing wrong. They say they updated the PCM with TSB 18-007-05, which came out a year ago and is only for vehicles built before February 13, 2005. My build date is March 1, 2005. TSB 18-007-05 states a PCM sticker with the update is required by Federal law - no sticker on the PCM or anywhere else. Also, the last time a PCM flash was done on my vehicle at a different dealership, the tech showed me the system checking the PCM/TCM while online, and it won't flash update a TSB fix that is already applied. It reads everything about your PCM/TCM with lots of software versions recorded. These guys at Abernathy are classic examples of why customers dread auto repairs.

So I asked the SA what his explanation is for the excessive oil usage, and the other codes, and why a TSB for a build date that doesn't apply to my Jeep. His answer - "the oil usage is troubling. Sometimes putting an older TSB fixes things. We cleared the codes and they didn't come back. If the codes come back, bring it back in."

Oh yes, thanks DCX for building a great support infrastructure for your "test market" diesel vehicles. I'm sure this dealer network of diesel certified is now ready to provide the same sterling support for your new Grand Cherokee diesels.

All the way home, huge black clouds of smoke boiling out the exhaust. Sometimes some blue smoke. Pretty clear they didn't want to work on it and cleared the codes. Nice job guys. I would rather they had just told me not to bring it in.

I do feel for you. I just picked mine up for the dealer following the repairs we agreed to when I met with the reps from DC. They changed the oil (back to 0W40) and want to watch it for consumption over time (I can understand that). They agreed to perform the transmission filter TSB (once they verified the serial # on the tranny) and seal the base of the transmission dipstick. Did nothing to the transmission. I even had the delayed engagement into reverse problem when I backed out of the garage to take it to the dealer (which I reported). Got it back with another "can not duplicate" note and absolutely nothing done to the transmission. I was even asked to wait a week to bring it in because their transmission tech was on vacation at the time. On a positive, I do know they drove it because they didn't like the slop in the front end and replace the LBJ's.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:53 am

How many Jeep dealers have qualified diesel tech's and know of the problems diesels have with EGR, CCV's and other related problems. If you take a CRD Jeep to a Jeep only dealership you are just looking for problems and making a small problem in a huge one with huge problems for the owner of the Jeep.

This is just my opinion and not necessary the views of the management here or others. It is just some advice from me, and as I said I would never take a CRD to stand alone Jeep dealer.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Abernathy is a CRD certified Jeep dealership. They both sell and ***cough*** service them. They had a CRD on the lot, with the sticker showing shipment to them from DCX. This is the support structure DCX certified. They are not independents. While its under warranty, you have little choice but to bring it to a Jeep dealership. For whatever that's worth.

My point is DCX hasn't made the effort to ensure adequate training and logistic parts support for their diesel rollout in the US. How many reports are there online in forums such as these with one week parts delays for egr valves, glow plugs over a year after they started failing routinely? Now that the CRD is no longer produced, the DCX CRD school discontinued, where can the dealership support go from here? Unless they bring a CRD back in 08, how can this lack of diesel support possibly get better?

I've been a strong supporter of diesels and the CRD. But DCX is doing another GM debacle with this kind of support. The R428 engine itself is a great engine, but the Bosch fuel system and DCX software quality leave much to be desired.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:25 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Abernathy is a CRD certified Jeep dealership. They both sell and ***cough*** service them. They had a CRD on the lot, with the sticker showing shipment to them from DCX. This is the support structure DCX certified. They are not independents. While its under warranty, you have little choice but to bring it to a Jeep dealership. For whatever that's worth.

I am not talking about an indy dealer, I am talking about a D/C dealership that has never had a diesel vehicle in the shop to work on till the CRD came out. The diesel is not a gas engine and has lot of different technology involved from the gas engine. Take it to a 5 Star dealer that sells plenty of Sprinters & Cummins powered trucks, you are by law allowed to do this by the way

Ranger1 wrote:

My point is DCX hasn't made the effort to ensure adequate training and logistic parts support for their diesel rollout in the US. How many reports are there online in forums such as these with one week parts delays for egr valves, glow plugs over a year after they started failing routinely? Now that the CRD is no longer produced, the DCX CRD school discontinued, where can the dealership support go from here? Unless they bring a CRD back in 08, how can this lack of diesel support possibly get better?

I agree D/C dropped the ball, but remember the folks at Jeep and Chrysler were doing the basic logistic planning and apparently someone forgot or more likely did not know the diesel is nothing like the gas engine. So you and I are forced to seek our own sullutions to the problem, ie. take the vehicle to a experienced diesel dealership.

Ranger1 wrote:

I've been a strong supporter of diesels and the CRD. But DCX is doing another GM debacle with this kind of support. The R428 engine itself is a great engine, but the Bosch fuel system and DCX software leave much to be desired.

Actually the fuel system is outstanding and the only real problem with this vehicle is oil in the CAC system due to lack of filter to remove the oil, possible week tranny, and a BIG problem for folks like you who buy from a stand alone Jeep dealership who have no diesel experience and increase peoples problem and precieved problems.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:21 am

Gawd, it sounds like we're talking about 2 different dealers here. It sounds like you got treated the same way at Abernethy that I got treated at Lake Norman.

And unfortunately, I can see the common thread here - at the dealerships where we got the bum's rush, IT WASN'T WHERE WE BOUGHT IT! At both places, it seems if you didn't purchase it there, they don't want to be bothered with warranty work.

Abernethy has been in business since before I was born, we're talking a good 50 years at least. They're a full fledged CJD dealer, not just Jeep, and their old hands do have plenty of experience servicing diesels, and most of the people there seemed quite enthusiastic about the CRD.

I met the tech they sent to CRD school, and unfortunately he looks to be a new guy with little or no experience on diesels. He's the one on my last visit that told me my vehicle build date didn't match for the tranny TSB, and didn't put the TSB sticker under the hood, then didn't fill it out correctly when I insisted on getting one.

When I took mine in last Wednesday and they found P 0101, 0104, and 0299, there was no BS involved - they said flat out "the EGR's gone bad, we've placed the parts on order, give us a call Friday afternoon to see if they've come in, and we'll set you up with an appointment to get it done".

Which service writer did you deal with? The best one there is woman named Alice, works at the first desk as you enter the drop off area. She's an old hand, been with their service dept for years, and from talking with her probably knows more about diesels than some of their techs do.

Over the past 3 years or so, my family and relatives have bought something like 4 or 5 vehicles thru them, and 2 or 3 times I've helped out the sales people we've dealt with by getting them one of the low grade "friends" discount numbers from DC to help another customer purchase a vehicle. That, and being a Freightliner (DC) employee, might explain part of the difference in treatment.

But then, , the very first time I visited their dealership, when they didn't know me from Adam, I was treated with respect and courtesy, none of the high pressure or other BS I've experienced at other dealers. It's one of the reasons I decided to do business with them, even though there's 3 or 4 other dealers that are closer.

I think the problem is with the young gent that thinks he's a full fledged diesel tech just because he's been to the DC school.

I've got a nodding acquaintance with sales, service, and GM's over there. Send me a PM describing who you dealt with and what exactly happened. When they give me a call on mine and I go over there, I'll have a word with them and see if I can find out why you got treated in that fashion.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I've got a nodding acquaintance with sales, service, and GM's over there. Send me a PM describing who you dealt with and what exactly happened. When they give me a call on mine and I go over there, I'll have a word with them and see if I can find out why you got treated in that fashion.

PM will be sent shortly. Have to say, the service writer was very courteous, our conversation was the same, but in the end, he had no explanation for the oil loss or what the codes meant. His statement was "we checked it out and its running correctly even though all these codes are set." Alice was there when I went in this morning, but she wasn't the SA I dealt with. Clearly the SA's aren't at fault here. If a tech doesn't want to deal with a vehicle, there isn't much point in trying to convince them to work on it. If the SM blasts him and makes him work on it anyway, who knows what might happen.

I've never been to this dealership before. Not a good impression.

P0101 MAF/VAF Circuit Range/Performance

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